Hypocritical Germans refuse to aid the countries that aided them
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« on: February 04, 2015, 02:43:31 PM »

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/27/greece-spain-helped-germany-recover?CMP=share_btn_tw

Half of Germany's WWII debt was cancelled and Germany received massive aid from the rest of Europe, including Spain and Greece.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2015, 12:35:17 AM »

     Because Germany should base its economic policy based on what happened over half a century ago. Let's go with "no".
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politicus
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2015, 03:55:55 AM »
« Edited: February 05, 2015, 04:33:40 AM by Charlotte Hebdo »

Because Germany should base its economic policy based on what happened over half a century ago. Let's go with "no".

The moral debt of that specific era is not something that can be erased in a mere 60-70 years. I don't think it is absurd to say Germany bases its modern economy on the leniency and helping hand shown back then and should take that into consideration when acting in the present situation.
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Beezer
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2015, 06:00:49 AM »

The debt was forgiven because creditors saw that the country had changed and that forgiveness would play an integral role in an economic boom that the rest of Europe would profit from as well. If all of Greece's debt was forgiven on the other hand, Syriza would begin digging a new hole tomorrow by hiring public sector employees nobody needs while not addressing the underlying factors that make Greece such an unattractive place to invest.

Moreover, why is everybody always focusing on Germany?! It's not like Finland, the Netherlands or a few of the peripheral countries who pitched in when it came to bailing out Greece while enacting their own reforms are particularly crazy about a more lenient stance.
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ingemann
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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2015, 06:24:12 AM »

The debt was forgiven because creditors saw that the country had changed and that forgiveness would play an integral role in an economic boom that the rest of Europe would profit from as well. If all of Greece's debt was forgiven on the other hand, Syriza would begin digging a new hole tomorrow by hiring public sector employees nobody needs while not addressing the underlying factors that make Greece such an unattractive place to invest.

Moreover, why is everybody always focusing on Germany?! It's not like Finland, the Netherlands or a few of the peripheral countries who pitched in when it came to bailing out Greece while enacting their own reforms are particularly crazy about a more lenient stance.

It's easier to hit Germany than demanding that the Dutch or Finns bail out Greece, which would meet even less sympathy.

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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2015, 06:29:30 AM »

Tell me, dear Very Serious People, how has austerity helped Greece enact structural reforms? Unless slashing the minimum wage and stopping to provide basic social services is what you mean by "structural reforms".
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ingemann
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2015, 06:44:43 AM »

Tell me, dear Very Serious People, how has austerity helped Greece enact structural reforms? Unless slashing the minimum wage and stopping to provide basic social services is what you mean by "structural reforms".

So let's say that Greece just get the money, what happens then, dear very unserious person? Have Greece given any kind of indication that they will make any kind of structural reforms, have they given any indication that we can trust their promises?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2015, 06:52:21 AM »

Tell me, dear Very Serious People, how has austerity helped Greece enact structural reforms? Unless slashing the minimum wage and stopping to provide basic social services is what you mean by "structural reforms".

So let's say that Greece just get the money, what happens then, dear very unserious person? Have Greece given any kind of indication that they will make any kind of structural reforms, have they given any indication that we can trust their promises?

I would certainly trust Syriza more than the old parties to crack down on tax evasion and curtail the privileges of protected categories, yes.
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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2015, 06:55:08 AM »

Tell me, dear Very Serious People, how has austerity helped Greece enact structural reforms? Unless slashing the minimum wage and stopping to provide basic social services is what you mean by "structural reforms".

So let's say that Greece just get the money, what happens then, dear very unserious person? Have Greece given any kind of indication that they will make any kind of structural reforms, have they given any indication that we can trust their promises?
Who's we?  You and the turd in your pocket?

Im sure the Greeks are happy to know that random Danes are doing their moral duty and ensuring they don't get a single penny until they've completely and utterly dis/daned them and let them know that they think Greeks are dhildren that must be dealt with like children.

Is this a unique attitude to you Ingemann or is it a common viewpoint in that least of Scandinavian nations?
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politicus
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2015, 07:05:07 AM »

Who's we?  You and the turd in your pocket?

Im sure the Greeks are happy to know that random Danes are doing their moral duty and ensuring they don't get a single penny until they've completely and utterly dis/daned them and let them know that they think Greeks are dhildren that must be dealt with like children.

Is this a unique attitude to you Ingemann or is it a common viewpoint in that least of Scandinavian nations?

Why do you have to get snarky about his nationality? ("dis/daned" Roll Eyes). It is not a matter of nationality.

And Denmark is not the least of the Scandinavian nations. It is the largest by territory and the second largest by population and GDP.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2015, 07:07:52 AM »

Who's we?  You and the turd in your pocket?

Im sure the Greeks are happy to know that random Danes are doing their moral duty and ensuring they don't get a single penny until they've completely and utterly dis/daned them and let them know that they think Greeks are dhildren that must be dealt with like children.

Is this a unique attitude to you Ingemann or is it a common viewpoint in that least of Scandinavian nations?

Why do you have to get snarky about his nationality? ("dis/daned" Roll Eyes). It is not a matter of nationality.

And Denmark is not the least of the Scandinavian nations. It is the largest by territory and the second largest by population and GDP.

You're right, it's not a Scandinavian thing. All the North European countries (even France, to some degree) have the same smug attitude and feel entitled to educate those lazy southerners about how to best manage their economy.
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Velasco
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2015, 07:08:21 AM »

LOL ingemann. You seem determined to deny any grace period to the new government! Do you really think that the EU taxpayers and the Greek public (this one paying a high price, in terms of humanitarian catastrophe) have been funding Greece? Ah, the Serious People Wink
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2015, 07:16:42 AM »

LOL ingemann. You seem determined to deny any grace period to the new government! Do you really think that the EU taxpayers and the Greek public (this one paying a high price, in terms of humanitarian catastrophe) have been funding Greece? Ah, the Serious People Wink

It's not like northern countries even lost money by "helping" Greece. They've been lending this money with rates higher than what they pay for their own government bond, so they are actually profiting from this whole situation. Unless Greece defaults, obviously. What they don't realize is that austerity is increasing the probability of a Greek default, not reducing it.
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ingemann
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2015, 07:30:00 AM »

Sarcasm or "rigtheous" hysterics don't convince anybody that it's a good idea to send money to Greece, and BTW Antonio; France is the biggest Greek creditor, and that hasn't resulted in the French economy doing incredible well.




So take the ideological glasses off.

Through if we kept them on, we could help many more people if we instead of putting more money in Greece, send them to the Third World instead.
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Beezer
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2015, 07:31:18 AM »

You're right, it's not a Scandinavian thing. All the North European countries (even France, to some degree) have the same smug attitude and feel entitled to educate those lazy southerners about how to best manage their economy.

Well, considering the economic state the north and south find themselves in, a certain smugness is not necessarily uncalled for.

I do believe that Syriza could be a breath of fresh air when it comes to dealing with tax evasion and other endemic Greek problems. I just doubt their primary economic programs that can be boiled down to "let's throw money at it" will do a better job of getting Greece out of this mess than austerity (which Greece did a pitiful job of implementing).
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snowguy716
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2015, 07:42:53 AM »

Who's we?  You and the turd in your pocket?

Im sure the Greeks are happy to know that random Danes are doing their moral duty and ensuring they don't get a single penny until they've completely and utterly dis/daned them and let them know that they think Greeks are dhildren that must be dealt with like children.

Is this a unique attitude to you Ingemann or is it a common viewpoint in that least of Scandinavian nations?

Why do you have to get snarky about his nationality? ("dis/daned" Roll Eyes). It is not a matter of nationality.

And Denmark is not the least of the Scandinavian nations. It is the largest by territory and the second largest by population and GDP.
I was being snarky and nothing more.  I found his post belittling and patronizing and wanted to respond in kind.  Perhaps as a kind of Jantesque reminder not to think too highly of yourself.

Also I think counting Greenland is a little much here. 

Anyway..ingemann broke many of the laws

You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.

And

You're not to think you can teach us anything.

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Velasco
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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2015, 07:49:24 AM »

I do believe that Syriza could be a breath of fresh air when it comes to dealing with tax evasion and other endemic Greek problems. I just doubt their primary economic programs that can be boiled down to "let's throw money at it" will do a better job of getting Greece out of this mess than austerity (which Greece did a pitiful job of implementing).

Obviously Samaras was unwilling to address issues like tax evasion or endemic corruption; it's good that you admit that the new government has at least the intent. However, Greece has been running a primary surplus which has been handed on creditors, so... was really the previous administration so bad in implementing austerity? Also, is there any historical precedent proving that austerity works? What debt ratios and socioeconomic indicators say?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2015, 08:02:17 AM »

So take the ideological glasses off.

That's funny considering you're the one who's in favor of continuing a policy that has clearly been a complete and utter failure by every measure for everyone involved.



You're right, it's not a Scandinavian thing. All the North European countries (even France, to some degree) have the same smug attitude and feel entitled to educate those lazy southerners about how to best manage their economy.

Well, considering the economic state the north and south find themselves in, a certain smugness is not necessarily uncalled for.

Following your logic, wealthy people are entitled to be smug towards poor people. How progressive!
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ingemann
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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2015, 08:10:10 AM »

This may come as a shock to some, but it's not smugness, when you don't trust a known liar and conman. The Greeks need to show they deserve to be trusted, before anybody should trust them again.

As for Syriza, well they're preferable to ND and Pasok, but until they have shown they're not as corrupt as their predecessors, they shouldn't expect that they will just receive money.
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politicus
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« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2015, 08:10:39 AM »

Who's we?  You and the turd in your pocket?

I'm sure the Greeks are happy to know that random Danes are doing their moral duty and ensuring they don't get a single penny until they've completely and utterly dis/daned them and let them know that they think Greeks are dhildren that must be dealt with like children.

Is this a unique attitude to you Ingemann or is it a common viewpoint in that least of Scandinavian nations?

Why do you have to get snarky about his nationality? ("dis/daned" Roll Eyes). It is not a matter of nationality.

And Denmark is not the least of the Scandinavian nations. It is the largest by territory and the second largest by population and GDP.
I was being snarky and nothing more.  I found his post belittling and patronizing and wanted to respond in kind.  Perhaps as a kind of Jantesque reminder not to think too highly of yourself.

Also I think counting Greenland is a little much here. 

Anyway.. Ingemann broke many of the laws

You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.

And

You're not to think you can teach us anything.


Why wouldn't you include Greenland in the territory? It is part of the state and is not like all the territory of the other Scandinavian countries is garden soil.

What could possibly be gained by answering his post by being equally belittling and patronizing or dragging the Law of Jante into the discussion?

The irritation of inefficient Southern European economies and political systems is widespread in both Northern and Eastern European EU member states. The Baltic countries are fx some of the hardliners on the debt issue as are other parts of the old Eastern Europe. Northern disdain for Southern inefficiency has some factual basis. Generally Northern European countries are better organized and less corrupt than Southern Europe. If the EU is going to work Southern Europe will probably have to establish procedures and organizational practices closer to Northern Europe and some social norms have to change. A certain "northernization" of Southern Europe is probably necessary if the EU is going to work as an economic union.

(as a Eurosceptic I do not really have a dog in that fight, but if you want the EU to work as an actual political and economic union I think it is obvious that the South will need to adjust a lot more than the North)
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Beezer
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« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2015, 08:35:02 AM »

I do believe that Syriza could be a breath of fresh air when it comes to dealing with tax evasion and other endemic Greek problems. I just doubt their primary economic programs that can be boiled down to "let's throw money at it" will do a better job of getting Greece out of this mess than austerity (which Greece did a pitiful job of implementing).

Obviously Samaras was unwilling to address issues like tax evasion or endemic corruption; it's good that you admit that the new government has at least the intent. However, Greece has been running a primary surplus which has been handed on creditors, so... was really the previous administration so bad in implementing austerity? Also, is there any historical precedent proving that austerity works? What debt ratios and socioeconomic indicators say?

Well, according to the current Greek finmin that (2013) surplus wasn't much of a surplus after all...

According to the official figures that Eurostat just released, Greece’s general government had, in 2013, a primary deficit of 12.7% of GDP if we add to it the cost of recapitalising the banks (again during 2013). Let’s accept that this cost should not count as part of the government’s outlays (even though it is not clear why it should not). According to the official announcement, a 2013 primary surplus thus emerges to the tune of €1.5 billion (note that ELSTAT had announced, under the ESA95 rule, a primary surplus of €3.39 billion which was then  ‘downgraded’ to €1.5 billion). From this €1.5 billion we ought to subtract the government’s arrears to the private sector for 2013, of about €4 billion, since the government had a contractual obligation to pay these monies within 2013 (but didn’t). But, for the sake of argument, let us, again, be ‘generous’ to the Greek government, ELSTAT and Eurostat and accept their shaky argument that these arrears ought to be kept out of the government’s 2013 outlays. The fact is that, even then, a primary deficit of €3.9 billion is the true, final, number. How come? The answer is wholly unappetising.

Buried inside the official national statistics (see the comments below for the sources, as posted kindly by a reader), the keen observer will notice something rather strange. To be precise, she will notice two unexpected ‘windfalls’ that have turned the Greek government’s primary deficit into a primary surplus. Was it manna from heaven? Some boost in the tax take? No, none of that. It was two so-called ‘white holes': €700 million was ‘discovered’ inside the local authorities’ accounts and another €4.7 billion inside the accounts of the state pension funds. Last year, in 2012, these ‘holes’ were distinctly ‘black’. So, how did they turn ‘white’ in 2013? Did local authorities and pension funds experience a stunning revival? No, dear reader. Rather, monies borrowed by the Greek state, from Europe, were parked into these accounts during 2013, did not count as part of the state’s new liabilities, but were counted as part of its… assets. Of course, anyone who knows anything about Greek public finances knows that local authorities and, especially, pension funds are bankrupt – profoundly so the pension funds which, following  the 2012 PSI, saw much of their capitalisation disappear into thin air. The notion that, during 2013, local authorities and pension funds held more that €5 billion worth of real, home-grown liquid assets on behalf of the government is utterly laughable.


http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2014/04/24/greek-statistics-are-back-primary-deficit-presented-as-surplus-with-eurostats-seal-of-approval/


Concerning austerity working...I don't have a background in economics but it is clear that it could have been implemented in a better manner. I still believe though that the pursuit of a Keynesian path in Greece would not have led to a substantially better outcome. Greece would in all likelihood have done an even poorer job of implementing reform commitments and its economy would thus be in an even less competitive state today. A far more sensible solution would have been an orderly default in which the French, German and other European governments would then have bailed out banks on a case by case basis instead of handing the money over to Greece which then paid off its European creditors.
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Beezer
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« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2015, 08:40:06 AM »

Following your logic, wealthy people are entitled to be smug towards poor people. How progressive!

No, affluent people that have obtained their wealth due to sensible choices and industriousness can lend advice to others who repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

Anyway, all of this could have been avoided if we weren't joined at the hip by a common currency. If Greece prefers a Socialist approach to running their economy they ought to be perfectly free to do so w/o German interference.
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Velasco
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2015, 09:17:59 AM »

Well, according to the current Greek finmin that (2013) surplus wasn't much of a surplus after all...

Good. Very useful link, thanks. Here we have a good argument not only to distrust the Samaras administration, but the very European institutions. I guess you do realise that in the whole issue of the Greek bailout and the austerity we seem to be living in a great lie. However, don't lose sight on the basic fact: while huge amounts of money have been spent in paying interests to creditors (which are the ones who the bailout has been financing, including German banks), Greece is facing a huge depression, unemployment increased from 9% in 2009 to 28% now and the country is in a state of social emergency. Why? You claim that it's because austerity policies should have been better implemented. However, other people challenge that argument:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/26/opinion/paul-krugman-ending-greeces-nightmare.html

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Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2015, 09:57:19 AM »

You're right, it's not a Scandinavian thing. All the North European countries (even France, to some degree) have the same smug attitude and feel entitled to educate those lazy southerners about how to best manage their economy.

Well that is because those countries are actually able to manage their economies...

The problem with the anti-austerity camp is that so far I've never seen anyone of you present any options to the current policy. Do you want to keep pouring money into Greece indefinably with-out any sort of counter requirements?

That is like giving money to someone who has gambled away all their money in Vegas, that will just gamble away the money once you give it to them. It's not social justice, it's idiocy.

It's not that we shouldn't help those who are in a weaker position economically than we are, indeed I believe strongly that we must help them. But the help should be in order to reconstruct them, so that they eventually can stand on their own feet, and in order for that to happen they must do what they themselves are able to do to achieve that goal. It's all really simple, and can be applied to individual citizens, as well as countries.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2015, 10:21:37 AM »

You're right, it's not a Scandinavian thing. All the North European countries (even France, to some degree) have the same smug attitude and feel entitled to educate those lazy southerners about how to best manage their economy.

Well that is because those countries are actually able to manage their economies...

The problem with the anti-austerity camp is that so far I've never seen anyone of you present any options to the current policy. Do you want to keep pouring money into Greece indefinably with-out any sort of counter requirements?

That is like giving money to someone who has gambled away all their money in Vegas, that will just gamble away the money once you give it to them. It's not social justice, it's idiocy.

It's not that we shouldn't help those who are in a weaker position economically than we are, indeed I believe strongly that we must help them. But the help should be in order to reconstruct them, so that they eventually can stand on their own feet, and in order for that to happen they must do what they themselves are able to do to achieve that goal. It's all really simple, and can be applied to individual citizens, as well as countries.

This is all well and good, but you still have to explain how austerity has helped Greece "reconstruct itself, so that it can eventually stand on its own feet". In fact, it has achieved the exact opposite! Even Greek debt is bigger now than when the crisis began!

So I'm not an economist and I can't tell for sure which policies are going to work in solving Greece's economic problems (although cracking down on corruption and tax evasion, which is what Tsipras has vowed to do, certainly can help a lot), but anyone can easily tell which policies haven't worked.

You guys are hilarious, trying to defend failed policies through strawmen of other policies nobody has argued for.
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