Obama's lies on TPP

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

In that it will lead to few to no job gains.

[Murica!]

Politicians are lying bastards? How could this be?!

[Beet]

The case for TPP is also political. It draws together our Pacific alliances into an economic grouping- did Putin try to bribe Ukraine or establish the "Eurasian Union" because he thinks it will benefit Russia economically? Hardly. If realpolitik is back- and this is something Obama has always understood on a certain level even though he has a tendency towards complacency- it is important for the U.S. to maintain close relations with our Pacific partners.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

The case for TPP is also political. It draws together our Pacific alliances into an economic grouping- did Putin try to bribe Ukraine or establish the "Eurasian Union" because he thinks it will benefit Russia economically? Hardly. If realpolitik is back- and this is something Obama has always understood on a certain level even though he has a tendency towards complacency- it is important for the U.S. to maintain close relations with our Pacific partners.

You are making a critical mistake by separating intenational diplomacy from business interests. The former is fundamentally driven by the latter.

[Beet]

The case for TPP is also political. It draws together our Pacific alliances into an economic grouping- did Putin try to bribe Ukraine or establish the "Eurasian Union" because he thinks it will benefit Russia economically? Hardly. If realpolitik is back- and this is something Obama has always understood on a certain level even though he has a tendency towards complacency- it is important for the U.S. to maintain close relations with our Pacific partners.

You are making a critical mistake by separating intenational diplomacy from business interests. The former is fundamentally driven by the latter.

Economics can be a tool of diplomacy too. Not everything is a business conspiracy.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

The case for TPP is also political. It draws together our Pacific alliances into an economic grouping- did Putin try to bribe Ukraine or establish the "Eurasian Union" because he thinks it will benefit Russia economically? Hardly. If realpolitik is back- and this is something Obama has always understood on a certain level even though he has a tendency towards complacency- it is important for the U.S. to maintain close relations with our Pacific partners.

You are making a critical mistake by separating intenational diplomacy from business interests. The former is fundamentally driven by the latter.

Economics can be a tool of diplomacy too. Not everything is a business conspiracy.

The very nature of the state is to protect monied interest--the Framers openly said as much when they made the House the only democratic section of the federal government. Hardly a conspiracy.

[Citizen Hats]

Ugh.  

The purpose of trade deals is to enhance productivity.  Jobs happen or they don't given the internal structure of the economy. Trade enables those jobs to produce more value than might otherwise have, producing the possibility of higher wages

That trade treaties (or anything else in the economy, beyond the short run) is presented in the language of 'jobs' is only a sob to the economically less literate than as an actual statement about total employment

[136or142]

Has anybody here actually looked at the link? the original poster got the claims by the Obama admin for the number of jobs that will allegedly created completely backwards:
“Estimates are that the TPP [Trans-Pacific Partnership] could provide $77 billion a year in real income and support 650,000 new jobs in the U.S. alone.”

–Secretary of State John F. Kerry, in an opinion article titled “Alliances for Peace,” Jan. 14, 2015

“Completing the Trans-Pacific Partnership provides the opportunity to open up markets, lower tariffs and, according to the Peterson Institute, increase U.S. exports by $123 billion and help support an additional 650,000 jobs.”

– Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack, in an interview with the Greater Baton Rouge Business Report, Jan. 26, 2015

I suppose the op is correct in that 650,000 jobs in the overall economy isn't that large (but they hardly ever said 'no jobs' as the op also says), but clearly that number given by Kerry and Vilsack was designed to impress people and not to leave people with the impression that very few jobs would be created.  The exact opposite of what the originial poster said.

[Gustaf]

Ugh.  

The purpose of trade deals is to enhance productivity.  Jobs happen or they don't given the internal structure of the economy. Trade enables those jobs to produce more value than might otherwise have, producing the possibility of higher wages

That trade treaties (or anything else in the economy, beyond the short run) is presented in the language of 'jobs' is only a sob to the economically less literate than as an actual statement about total employment

Basically this is the truth.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Why is "enhancing productivity" considered to be desirable if the effects are nearly negligible and the consequences of the trade deal disproportionately impact those with less income and constrain domestic policy-making? I'm not concerned about the TPP because I care about "jobs". I'm concerned about the TPP because I oppose trade deals that engender inequality and undermine democracy for the sake of incredibly limited economic gains. I'm also concerned about trade deals that are asymmetric.




Let's discuss intellectual property and the effects of harmonizing disparate regulatory policies instead of repeating stupid tropes about trade. 

[Deus Naturae]

One thing that rarely gets discussed is that the TPP would be really terrible for stuff like manga, video games, tentacle porn, and other great cultural stuff produced in Japan, as well as other material like software and technology. The copyright provisions would ban parallel importation - the transport of copyrighted material across national borders - and would prosecute any and all copyright infringement regardless of whether the copyright-holder actually objected. This crap is reason to reject the treaty.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

They may take our jobs, but they will never take our tentacle porn. They can prise that from my cold, dead hands tentacles.

[Frodo]

TPP aside, the tendency that politicians and bureaucrats have to present every potential program or policy in terms of "jobs created" is one of the most annoying trends in American political discourse. Creating jobs isn't an actual objective for most programs (including tax cuts) and, without exception, the numbers are complete trash. You will only ever see those figures in poorly-written reports and the sort of vacuous, self-promoting press releases that Adam T just quoted.

Also, while this probably isn't worth addressing in a Snowstalker thread, it'd be great to get a more serious response to concerns about the distributive effects of the TPP than the usual received wisdom from Macro 101.

You should start a new thread on the subject then. 

[AggregateDemand]

Two facts in this case:

1. Asians are malicious currency manipulators who siphon wealth from the Western middle class
2. The Western middle class, particularly in the US, actively undermine and cannibalize themselves with unprecedented counterproductive bureaucratic avarice and social behaviors.

If you're an Asian prime minister, and you discover that Medicare/Medicaid actually kill people faster at 3x-4x the cost of other public health insurance programs, and the people who are being killed by Medicare/Medicaid are obsessed with expanding the program, what the hell are you supposed to think? When you discover that Social Security has reduced poverty rates for the elderly by throwing young people in the poor house, what are you supposed to think? When you find out that American middle class are willing to drive pick up trucks to their desk jobs, why wouldn't you steal their jobs and laugh at them?

I'd probably be manipulating my currency and looting America, as well. We don't even have the instinct of self-preservation. Why would anyone willingly surrender a monetary policy tool? If I were the POTUS I'd probably feel obliged to lie about the situation, too.

[Maxwell]

Two facts in this case:

1. Asians are malicious currency manipulators who siphon wealth from the Western middle class
2. The Western middle class, particularly in the US, actively undermine and cannibalize themselves with unprecedented counterproductive bureaucratic avarice and social behaviors.

If you're an Asian prime minister, and you discover that Medicare/Medicaid actually kill people faster at 3x-4x the cost of other public health insurance programs, and the people who are being killed by Medicare/Medicaid are obsessed with expanding the program, what the hell are you supposed to think? When you discover that Social Security has reduced poverty rates for the elderly by throwing young people in the poor house, what are you supposed to think? When you find out that American middle class are willing to drive pick up trucks to their desk jobs, why wouldn't you steal their jobs and laugh at them?

I'd probably be manipulating my currency and looting America, as well. We don't even have the instinct of self-preservation. Why would anyone willingly surrender a monetary policy tool? If I were the POTUS I'd probably feel obliged to lie about the situation, too.

That's racist, dog.

[Beet]

All currencies are artificial. The supply of every currency is determined by how much the central bank creates. If they create more - the lower the value of the currency. If they create less, the higher the value. This whole notion of "currency manipulation" is a red herring because it implies that currencies have some "natural" value independent of government policy when they don't. It also implies some underhanded trick to change the value of a currency, when government intervention is all out in the open.

If we want to increase our exports and make imports more expensive, then the Fed should just expand QE. It's not like inflation is a problem.

[ag]

Two facts in this case:

1. Asians are malicious currency manipulators who siphon wealth from the Western middle class
2. The Western middle class, particularly in the US, actively undermine and cannibalize themselves with unprecedented counterproductive bureaucratic avarice and social behaviors.

If you're an Asian prime minister, and you discover that Medicare/Medicaid actually kill people faster at 3x-4x the cost of other public health insurance programs, and the people who are being killed by Medicare/Medicaid are obsessed with expanding the program, what the hell are you supposed to think? When you discover that Social Security has reduced poverty rates for the elderly by throwing young people in the poor house, what are you supposed to think? When you find out that American middle class are willing to drive pick up trucks to their desk jobs, why wouldn't you steal their jobs and laugh at them?

I'd probably be manipulating my currency and looting America, as well. We don't even have the instinct of self-preservation. Why would anyone willingly surrender a monetary policy tool? If I were the POTUS I'd probably feel obliged to lie about the situation, too.

I would like to frame this post. I have a cruel streak in me: when you turn 15, you will be ashamed of it, but I would never stop reminding that you once posted something like this

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Another reason we need a non-neoliberal in the White House.

[ag]

Another reason we need a non-neoliberal in the White House.

Another reason to like President Obama

[AggregateDemand]

That's racist, dog.

The Asian Crisis happened. A spade is a spade. Plus, I was twice as condescending towards the West.

[AggregateDemand]

I would like to frame this post. I have a cruel streak in me: when you turn 15, you will be ashamed of it, but I would never stop reminding that you once posted something like this

Sure. Someday I'll wake, and regret that I lampooned the middle class for commuting to work in 17mpg trucks. The next day, I'll regret that I pointed out the abysmal cost of public healthcare in the US, and the shorter life-expectancy caused by spending the entire healthcare budget in the final 20 years of life. Then I'm going to weep for shedding light on the ludicrous (and hidden) side-effect of rampant Social Security spending/taxing, which is climbing poverty for the jobless under-24 demographic.

Someday, I'll realize that $2.5T in forex holdings by China and Japan aren't really a big deal.

Orthodoxy is your religion. No conventional thinker has ever made a contribution to economics. Your intellectual inflexibility is sufficiently cruel. No reason to go out of your way.

[compson III]

All currencies are artificial. The supply of every currency is determined by how much the central bank creates. If they create more - the lower the value of the currency. If they create less, the higher the value. This whole notion of "currency manipulation" is a red herring because it implies that currencies have some "natural" value independent of government policy when they don't. It also implies some underhanded trick to change the value of a currency, when government intervention is all out in the open.

If we want to increase our exports and make imports more expensive, then the Fed should just expand QE. It's not like inflation is a problem.

Yes.  The "natural" course for an East Asian currency is not an equilibrium but a boom-bust cycle.