Beck vs. Beyonce vs. Kanye

[traininthedistance]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one though. There just will never be an equivalency to me between someone who has the ability to craft their own music from scratch: that is write a melody, write the chords, write the lyrics, etc. and someone who has largely made a career out of rapping/talking over other people's music and modifying it in some way.

I'm unwilling to privilege any one form of pop-music creation over any other.  How is sampling any less "real" than going over the same three chords over and over?

What is more legitimately difficult and impressive, of course, is classical composition, where you're engaging in more complex forms with development and all that; where you're writing down each and ever note for each and every instrument. There are a few people working in "pop" music with those sorts of chops– Sufjan Stevens is the obvious example here, he's a legitimately serious musician and artist.  But, man, in a world where even McCartney and Lennon didn't know how to read music, and so much of their magic ought to be properly credited to George Martin... I sure as hell ain't singling out rappers as less "craft" or whatever.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one though. There just will never be an equivalency to me between someone who has the ability to craft their own music from scratch: that is write a melody, write the chords, write the lyrics, etc. and someone who has largely made a career out of rapping/talking over other people's music and modifying it in some way.

I'm unwilling to privilege any one form of pop-music creation over any other.  How is sampling any less "real" than going over the same three chords over and over?

What is more legitimately difficult and impressive, of course, is classical composition, where you're engaging in more complex forms with development and all that; where you're writing down each and ever note for each and every instrument. There are a few people working in "pop" music with those sorts of chops– Sufjan Stevens is the obvious example here, he's a legitimately serious musician and artist.  But, man, in a world where even McCartney and Lennon didn't know how to read music, and so much of their magic ought to be properly credited to George Martin... I sure as hell ain't singling out rappers as less "craft" or whatever.

you don't need to be able to read anything to create great music. That's not comparable to when the best parts of your song are literally just you playing a recording of someone else's music.

[Eraserhead]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one though. There just will never be an equivalency to me between someone who has the ability to craft their own music from scratch: that is write a melody, write the chords, write the lyrics, etc. and someone who has largely made a career out of rapping/talking over other people's music and modifying it in some way.

I'm unwilling to privilege any one form of pop-music creation over any other.  How is sampling any less "real" than going over the same three chords over and over?

What is more legitimately difficult and impressive, of course, is classical composition, where you're engaging in more complex forms with development and all that; where you're writing down each and ever note for each and every instrument. There are a few people working in "pop" music with those sorts of chops– Sufjan Stevens is the obvious example here, he's a legitimately serious musician and artist.  But, man, in a world where even McCartney and Lennon didn't know how to read music, and so much of their magic ought to be properly credited to George Martin... I sure as hell ain't singling out rappers as less "craft" or whatever.

you don't need to be able to read anything to create great music. That's not comparable to when the best parts of your song are literally just you playing a recording of someone else's music.

Exactly. George Martin is incredible and clearly deserves the title of "fifth Beatle" but the core songs themselves were all created by Lennon, McCartney and Harrison. They all could have existed in one form or another without him.

Take something like "Power" by Kanye West. Cool song, right? Yeah, but it's basically just Kanye talking (rapping?) over "21st Century Schizoid Man". Without "21st Century Schizoid Man" essentially all you have is Kanye talking to himself. Then there's the fact that the original track is like 100,000 times better than his.

But one thing I'll say for West and the people who work under him is that they do pick out some really great samples a lot of the time. If by him sampling King Crimson it gets a teenage kid who otherwise never would have been exposed to them to check out their stuff, then that's a good thing.

[Badger]

Beck, but with serious props to Kanye.

Beyonce isn't in the same league as either as either in terms of musicality or creativity. Beck and Kanye are both masters of songwriting and production, respectively. Beyonce is merely a fair set of pipes (that at least half the performers on Broadway could match and then some) augmented by an army of songwriters, choreographers, publicists and stylists.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Beck literally has more talent in his index finger than the other two combined. Let's get serious here. Beck doesn't need twenty different people to write his songs for him like those two do. That does matter (at least to me).

Artist vs Performer.

I wish people like Beyonce and Kanye would own up to what they are.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Beck literally has more talent in his index finger than the other two combined. Let's get serious here. Beck doesn't need twenty different people to write his songs for him like those two do. That does matter (at least to me).

Artist vs Performer.

I wish people like Beyonce and Kanye would own up to what they are.

Someone hasn't listened to MBDTF.

[Eraserhead]

Beck literally has more talent in his index finger than the other two combined. Let's get serious here. Beck doesn't need twenty different people to write his songs for him like those two do. That does matter (at least to me).

Artist vs Performer.

I wish people like Beyonce and Kanye would own up to what they are.

Someone hasn't listened to MBDTF.

I have. Many times. Snowguy still has a point.

[Cubby]

Either Kanye or Beyoncé. I don't like Kanye's association with those Armenians. But he's an amazing artist when he wants to be.

Beck hasn't been relevant since 1994's "soy peridor I'm a loser baby" etc. I was shocked that he won and think it was only done as a tactical anti-Beyoncé vote. What a terrible choice they made.

[Mopsus]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one though. There just will never be an equivalency to me between someone who has the ability to craft their own music from scratch: that is write a melody, write the chords, write the lyrics, etc. and someone who has largely made a career out of rapping/talking over other people's music and modifying it in some way.

I'm unwilling to privilege any one form of pop-music creation over any other.  How is sampling any less "real" than going over the same three chords over and over?

What is more legitimately difficult and impressive, of course, is classical composition, where you're engaging in more complex forms with development and all that; where you're writing down each and every note for each and every instrument. There are a few people working in "pop" music with those sorts of chops – Sufjan Stevens is the obvious example here, he's a legitimately serious musician and artist.

This post is an excellent demonstration of why a composition's value isn't derived from its technical complexity, but from its inspiration.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Kanye is clearly a gigantic jerk but a talented one nonetheless. It's no wonder Macca loves working with him so much. He probably gives him flashbacks to his late songwriter partner. (Although Lennon was more of a jerk than Kanye, seeing as West seems to treat his wife with affection and isn't abusive)

[Eraserhead]

Kanye is clearly a gigantic jerk but a talented one nonetheless. It's no wonder Macca loves working with him so much. He probably gives him flashbacks to his late songwriter partner. (Although Lennon was more of a jerk than Kanye, seeing as West seems to treat his wife with affection and isn't abusive)

Are we really comparing Kanye's talent as a "songwriter" to John Lennon's now? Oh boy.

[dead0man]

I wonder if Mark Chapman thinks so....and if so, can we let him out of jail?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Kanye is clearly a gigantic jerk but a talented one nonetheless. It's no wonder Macca loves working with him so much. He probably gives him flashbacks to his late songwriter partner. (Although Lennon was more of a jerk than Kanye, seeing as West seems to treat his wife with affection and isn't abusive)

Are we really comparing Kanye's talent as a "songwriter" to John Lennon's now? Oh boy.

Well clearly McCartney respects West enough to continue work with him, and claim on multiple occasions that West was one of his favourite contemporary artists. Unless you consider yourself a higher authority on musical taste than Sir Paul?

[Eraserhead]

Kanye is clearly a gigantic jerk but a talented one nonetheless. It's no wonder Macca loves working with him so much. He probably gives him flashbacks to his late songwriter partner. (Although Lennon was more of a jerk than Kanye, seeing as West seems to treat his wife with affection and isn't abusive)

Are we really comparing Kanye's talent as a "songwriter" to John Lennon's now? Oh boy.

Also, I'll give McCartney a pass on pretty much anything because he's Paul McCartney but he's definitely made more than a few questionable musical decisions over the years...
Well clearly McCartney respects West enough to continue work with him, and claim on multiple occasions that West was one of his favourite contemporary artists. Unless you consider yourself a higher authority on musical taste than Sir Paul?

What does any of that have to do with comparing him to John Lennon as a songwriter?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I was comparing west's personality with Lennon's. Both are self-admitted egotistical bastards.