The Set It and Leave it Alone Minimum Wage Act of 2015 (Signed)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Since 2013 my long-term objective has been to scale back the minimum wage in favor of alternatives or a collection of alternatives as opposed to using it constantly like we have in this chamber. Seriously, we have averaged a change once a year since I started and in the last two years it has been closer to every nine months. That is neither a smart nor a practical policy to pursue.

I offered this bill to bring stability to that situation at the very least if anything else wasn't possible at this stage and it is clear that such is not the case. I won't get to vote on this bill, and that is probably for the best at this point because I would be tempted to vote nay.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Well, I'm tempted to vote nay myself, Yankee.

There is an interesting balance to consider. Internships are meant to be temporary positions that provide students or other young people with valuable experience. While the intern certainly offers a service to the company or office they're working in, in a way, that office is also offering a valuable service to the intern. How many intern positions would cease to exist if this bill came into law? How many students would miss out on valuable "work" experience that could help them later in life? Students who decide to become unpaid interns know what they're getting into.

On the other hand, though, there's only a certain type of student who can afford to work as an unpaid intern, so there's definitely a privilege gap here. Is the solution to punish the people with privilege, or to find a way to help students with less privilege still find a way to make use of these internships?

I'm torn.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Well, I'm tempted to vote nay myself, Yankee.

There is an interesting balance to consider. Internships are meant to be temporary positions that provide students or other young people with valuable experience. While the intern certainly offers a service to the company or office they're working in, in a way, that office is also offering a valuable service to the intern. How many intern positions would cease to exist if this bill came into law? How many students would miss out on valuable "work" experience that could help them later in life? Students who decide to become unpaid interns know what they're getting into.

On the other hand, though, there's only a certain type of student who can afford to work as an unpaid intern, so there's definitely a privilege gap here. Is the solution to punish the people with privilege, or to find a way to help students with less privilege still find a way to make use of these internships?

I'm torn.

Well - companies also need interns. They wouldn't be taking them on unless there's some benefit for them in it.

In relation to Senator Hagrid - I'd prefer that a students capacity to survive not be brought into the issue. We shouldn't punish privilege any more than we should force students without the capacity to support themselves to work for nothing, while the companies get free labour.

Not that I'm advocating for this, since practical experience is important, maybe with fewer internships around, the expectations of the market on this front would be reduced.

[bore]

Yeah, the problem with unpaid interns isn't necessarily that they are a bad thing for the students themselves. If they were then no one would apply. The problem is they are only accessible to people who have families who can support them which is, especially when you consider many of these internships are in areas with ruinous accommodation costs, a very small percentage of the population. Add in the fact that some sort of internship is now becoming almost necessary to get into some fields and unpaid internships are basically discriminating against the poor.

It's the same reason why MPs should be paid. There is nothing wrong, in principle, with MPs not drawing a salary because they feel it to be some sort of civic obligation, the problem comes with the large groups of people who can't afford to not draw a salary.

[TNF]

Companies don't "need" to employ unpaid labor. No worker should be subject to slavery in order to get a job in the future.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Volunteerism is not slavery.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Volunteerism is not slavery.

Considering the value placed on the internships in the employment market ... It's getting harder to legitimately call them volunteer posts.

[Cranberry]

Numerous Senators and citizens have expressed their opinion in this thread far better than I could have ever done it myself, due to the obvious differences in knowledge about the respective subject between me and them; so I will not attempt to write a wall of text with no real points being said.

Still, I do join many Senators and citizens in the position that I believe interns should be paid the same minimum wage that is paid to everyone, not because of "muh slavery" sentiment, but because of I believe human decency and the big problems many people "trapped" in the internship-spiral face.

That's it from me.

[Talleyrand]

What exactly do we define as an intern here? I've done a lot of internships in my high school career, but most of them have been more or less educational in purpose and I haven't really contributed something as a worker in any of those situations. I like the idea of setting a minimum wage for unpaid internships too, but we need to be careful what we are going to allow to fall within that range.

[Cranberry]

What exactly do we define as an intern here? I've done a lot of internships in my high school career, but most of them have been more or less educational in purpose and I haven't really contributed something as a worker in any of those situations. I like the idea of setting a minimum wage for unpaid internships too, but we need to be careful what we are going to allow to fall within that range.

Still, I guess I am right in assuming that in every of these internships you did some work that would otherwise have had to be done by a payed employee? For this work, interns definitely should be compensated. Speaking of this though, it probably would be not the worst idea to clarify in the amendment that this minimum wage here is of course only to be paid when the intern in question actually does work, not though if he/she "just" is in the firm in question in doing further education.

[Lief 🗽]

If we do apply this law to internships, then I will be proposing an amendment that exempts government and non-profit organizations from having to pay their interns the minimum wage. I have no problem with compelling private organizations to follow these laws, but government and private non-profit positions can often hardly afford to pay their interns $8 an hour, much less Atlasia's very high $15 an hour. Despite this, these organizations do a lot of good work, and can provide students with just as much experience as private organizations that can afford to pay their interns.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

That sounds like a reasonable change, although I'm afraid the inclusion of internships in this legislation at all might have turned the bill into something far different than what Yankee intended...

[windjammer]

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This bill will have to be tabled???

[windjammer]

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Dear god, with that, this bill will be able to stay on the floor .

[Lief 🗽]

I move that the rules be suspended so that this bill is not tabled and we can continue to debate it.

[windjammer]

I move that the rules be suspended so that this bill is not tabled and we can continue to debate it.

Me too if this is not already clear .

I do hope a senator will ask the sponsorship of this bill!

[Lief 🗽]

I would be willing to sponsor it but I'm pretty sure I can't do that until after we've suspended the rules??

[windjammer]

I would be willing to sponsor it but I'm pretty sure I can't do that until after we've suspended the rules??

I think you can. The only rule that would have to be suspended would be the "the bill shall be withdrawn". Basically extending the time of the senators to ask for sponsorship for this bill.

Well, that's how I interpret the rules and what I would do if the senate decides to elect me as the speaker .

[Lief 🗽]

I will sponsor this bill then.

[Blair]

I campaigned heavily on the subject of internships, and we've managed to pass something in the Northeast that actually addresses the balance. But first on the potential amendment.

We need a minimum wage for internships, especially those in government positions. In fact I'd argue we'd need it more, for example government jobs tend to be in very expensive urban centers meaning that employees would be forking out a lot of money for living costs. Without a minimum wage how can we expect all members of society to engage in government. We trap ourselves  in a deadly cycle where only the rich can afford to enter public service, and then only the rich drive forward public property. How self serving would it look for the Senate to enforce on set of rules on business, whilst avoiding the same set of rules. Many prominent political organisations pay interns the living wage not because they have to, but because it's the decent, and moral thing to do.

In the NE we've been able to get something passed, relatively quickly that has helped to protect interns, I hope this legislation can be rolled out across all the regions

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[Lief 🗽]

Of course in an ideal world I would hope that government offices and non-profits would be able to afford inexperienced college students with $15/hour wages. However, especially with the thin budgets facing these organizations these days, I fear that if given the choice between hiring a $15/hour intern and not hiring an intern at all, they would too often pick the latter. Rather than encouraging low income students to take these positions, legislation like this would make these positions disappear entirely.

Perhaps legislation that subsidizes non-profit/government hiring of interns, or provides stipends/grants/loans to low-income students seeking unpaid work would be a better idea (but beyond the scope of this legislation).

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

This feels like an out of body experience.

That sounds like a reasonable change, although I'm afraid the inclusion of internships in this legislation at all might have turned the bill into something far different than what Yankee intended...

Not necessarily, but my preference certainly would have been that they go with the separate bill approach.

[TNF]

Senators have 24 hours to object to Lief assuming sponsorship.

[Adam Griffin]

I must say that I'm a bit disappointed to see my party so divided on the matter of interns. While compromise et al is acceptable in most cases, we are the Labor Party after all.

I don't see why anyone should be put to work for less than the minimum wage. Our minimum wage has been considerably higher than in real-life for quite some time and I'm sure the market has adjusted accordingly to such conditions. I'm actually surprised to see us discussing a $14 minimum wage with less controversy than this. In addition, I'm confident that the market as a whole can adjust just fine without the concept of "unpaid interns"; entire generations of workers in select industries are not going to be denied employment when no one is able to obtain such "opportunities". Let us also remember that the industries and job sectors in which slave labor is utilized will usually have employees doing many of the same things as the unpaid individuals, working alongside them and making much more than minimum wage (in some cases, several times the amount).

[windjammer]

As I always said, I don't understand why anyone should be paid less than the minimum wage. That would be a violation of the idea of a minimum wage.