Death penalty halted in PA

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Again, the moral and logical solution is to abolish life imprisonment. If someone is sentenced to 20 years and kills a prison guard, they get 10 more years.

I'm not a big fan of life imprisonment either. I like the Norwegian system, where maximum prison term is 21 years, but if one's deemed to be a danger to society if released, it can me extended (that's why, despite right-wing talking points, Breivik is never getting out).

Many see it as "soft", but for me it's more reasonable than the absolutist approach with long, even mandatory sentences (not just for violent crimes, as we can see in America), that results in nothing but badly overcrowded prisons, that are both costly and utterly unproductive. Naturally, there are individuals beyond rehabilitation who ought to stay isolated, but every rehabilitated offender is a victory for society.

[homelycooking]

No amount of good derived from the execution of a thousand of the most vile, remorseless criminals could possibly compensate for the horror of having executed one innocent man.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

It's just a feel good move by Wolf.  No substance here.

[Badger]

It's just a feel good move by Wolf.  No substance here.

"No substance"? Hasn't he in fact blocked all pending executions in the state (pending appeals from the DA organizations)?

[Badger]

HP. Getting rid of the death penalty puts prison guards and prisoners in danger.

Convicts have killed prison guards or fellow inmates in full knowledge that they would exchange the misery of life imprisonment for a faster death if suicide is unavailable or if they are scared of something even worse (a literal Hell) in the event of suicide. Maybe even the promise of a Last Meal and Last Words in a life which has lost all meaning.     

That is such an unimaginably low exception to the rule, that it litterally doesn't merit discussion. Doesa con serving life (or the functional equivilent) wish everyday they were outside? Of course. Do the overwhelming majority turn into violent predators or otherwise in a sick way of thinking 'thrive'. You bet.

There are valid arguments against capital punishment, even if I disagree with many of them; but death penalty opponents need to be honest about the fact lifers will remain drastic threats to staff and other inmates, and most such inmates will gladly take the opportunity to do what they want without retribution rather than seeing capital punishment as a glorified form of suicide.

But then given the amount of anti-cop vitriol that runs endemic throughout the Atlas, I'm guessing the sympathy for threats to COs is limited, as the typical image of prison guards around here is more formed by movies like Shawshank Redemption (awesome though it is) than real life.

There. I said it.

So then Minnesota prisons must be WAY WAY more dangerous than Texas prisons then? And Canadian prisons have to be way more dangerous than in most states?

Yeah, no.

Please. I'm hardly saying capital punishment is the cure all for broken underfunded, understaffed prison systems. The fact remains a lifer in MN can kill a guard, staff member, or other inmate with total legal impunity. Think about that.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

It's just a feel good move by Wolf.  No substance here.

"No substance"? Hasn't he in fact blocked all pending executions in the state (pending appeals from the DA organizations)?

I think he meant that Pennsylvania is already very unlikely to execute anyone (at least for a considerable period), though I wouldn't Wolf's move of "no substance" either.

[Rockefeller GOP]

Again, the moral and logical solution is to abolish life imprisonment. If someone is sentenced to 20 years and kills a prison guard, they get 10 more years.

There are certain people who just shouldn't ever be free again.  Period.

[TDAS04]

No amount of good derived from the execution of a thousand of the most vile, remorseless criminals could possibly compensate for the horror of having executed one innocent man.

Agreed.

[The Other Castro]

No amount of good derived from the execution of a thousand of the most vile, remorseless criminals could possibly compensate for the horror of having executed one innocent man.

Agreed.

[they don't love you like i love you]

HP. Getting rid of the death penalty puts prison guards and prisoners in danger.

Convicts have killed prison guards or fellow inmates in full knowledge that they would exchange the misery of life imprisonment for a faster death if suicide is unavailable or if they are scared of something even worse (a literal Hell) in the event of suicide. Maybe even the promise of a Last Meal and Last Words in a life which has lost all meaning.     

That is such an unimaginably low exception to the rule, that it litterally doesn't merit discussion. Doesa con serving life (or the functional equivilent) wish everyday they were outside? Of course. Do the overwhelming majority turn into violent predators or otherwise in a sick way of thinking 'thrive'. You bet.

There are valid arguments against capital punishment, even if I disagree with many of them; but death penalty opponents need to be honest about the fact lifers will remain drastic threats to staff and other inmates, and most such inmates will gladly take the opportunity to do what they want without retribution rather than seeing capital punishment as a glorified form of suicide.

But then given the amount of anti-cop vitriol that runs endemic throughout the Atlas, I'm guessing the sympathy for threats to COs is limited, as the typical image of prison guards around here is more formed by movies like Shawshank Redemption (awesome though it is) than real life.

There. I said it.

So then Minnesota prisons must be WAY WAY more dangerous than Texas prisons then? And Canadian prisons have to be way more dangerous than in most states?

Yeah, no.

Please. I'm hardly saying capital punishment is the cure all for broken underfunded, understaffed prison systems. The fact remains a lifer in MN can kill a guard, staff member, or other inmate with total legal impunity. Think about that.

I'm not too sure I'd call being locked up in solitary confinement permently or sent to a Supermax facility (considering that Supermax prisons were built initially specifically for inmates deemed too dangerous for the general population) to be "total legal impunity". In fact I'd bet you'd find many if not most people would prefer going to death row than going to a Supermax which is not surprising if you have any clue what those places are like.

But honestly this is one issue where my view is it doesn't matter what I think personally, I find the death penalty completely incompatible with Christianity and I can't support it if I'm going to follow Jesus. I opposed it before, but there's no way I'm backsliding on that now.

[Badger]

HP. Getting rid of the death penalty puts prison guards and prisoners in danger.

Convicts have killed prison guards or fellow inmates in full knowledge that they would exchange the misery of life imprisonment for a faster death if suicide is unavailable or if they are scared of something even worse (a literal Hell) in the event of suicide. Maybe even the promise of a Last Meal and Last Words in a life which has lost all meaning.     

That is such an unimaginably low exception to the rule, that it litterally doesn't merit discussion. Doesa con serving life (or the functional equivilent) wish everyday they were outside? Of course. Do the overwhelming majority turn into violent predators or otherwise in a sick way of thinking 'thrive'. You bet.

There are valid arguments against capital punishment, even if I disagree with many of them; but death penalty opponents need to be honest about the fact lifers will remain drastic threats to staff and other inmates, and most such inmates will gladly take the opportunity to do what they want without retribution rather than seeing capital punishment as a glorified form of suicide.

But then given the amount of anti-cop vitriol that runs endemic throughout the Atlas, I'm guessing the sympathy for threats to COs is limited, as the typical image of prison guards around here is more formed by movies like Shawshank Redemption (awesome though it is) than real life.

There. I said it.

So then Minnesota prisons must be WAY WAY more dangerous than Texas prisons then? And Canadian prisons have to be way more dangerous than in most states?

Yeah, no.

Please. I'm hardly saying capital punishment is the cure all for broken underfunded, understaffed prison systems. The fact remains a lifer in MN can kill a guard, staff member, or other inmate with total legal impunity. Think about that.

I'm not too sure I'd call being locked up in solitary confinement permently or sent to a Supermax facility (considering that Supermax prisons were built initially specifically for inmates deemed too dangerous for the general population) to be "total legal impunity". In fact I'd bet you'd find many if not most people would prefer going to death row than going to a Supermax which is not surprising if you have any clue what those places are like.

But honestly this is one issue where my view is it doesn't matter what I think personally, I find the death penalty completely incompatible with Christianity and I can't support it if I'm going to follow Jesus. I opposed it before, but there's no way I'm backsliding on that now.

First paragraph: I have practiced criminal law as either a prosecutor or defense attorney for over 20 years. Unlike you, I have been to prisons. I have investigated cases that occur in prison. I have dealt with clients, defendants, investigators, witnesses, and staff in prisons as my effing JOB for over two decades. And based on a couple tv shows and $hit you picked up on the internet you condensend to tell ME I don't know what the realities of prison life are??

Here's a plan, champ. While you're at it why don't you go teach Al a few things about the 80's miner strikes in England?> Or maybe educate Muon about physics or suburban Chicago politics? And while you're at it maybe you can tell Joe Republic what's what on the best places to really party in Vegas. Would that be pretentious and presumptives? Hell yes. But you couldn't possibly look more of an ass doing so than you do right now.

Second paragraph. That's fine. You and I can legitimately debate the theological differences we have there.

But DON'T accuse me of ignorance where you have exactly zero grounds to stand on.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

It's just a feel good move by Wolf.  No substance here.

"No substance"? Hasn't he in fact blocked all pending executions in the state (pending appeals from the DA organizations)?

Dude I can't remember the last time we lit up ole sparky or mainlined some murderer.  The locals are still going to go for it in a penalty phase, and with the pubs in control, the law itself isn't changing.

He might as well have said "no more guillotines in PA for murderers".  Big deal, we weren't using them anyway, sadly.

[courts]

sort of bizarre seeing a thread where i actually agree with badger and vosem

[Хahar 🤔]

I think that more discussions of the death penalty should invoke the sons of Fëanor.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Dude I can't remember the last time we lit up ole sparky

No wonder, that was 1962

Well, the only "practical" difference is that Wolfe won't be issuing any new death warrants (which would almost certainly be stayed anyway) like his predecessors, but it's a powerful message nonetheless.

[t_host1]

 Coming upon this thread reminds one of the high stakes of order, how a opinion rules the majority, the republic for which it stands is the minority, time is the commodity; billed, served, taken or given, order has a way of making the most it. Is it civilized?  hum, ...what are the other options again? 

 Meanwhile, Utah keeps the focus on the conclusion of quilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/13/utah-firing-squad_n_6680390.html

[they don't love you like i love you]

HP. Getting rid of the death penalty puts prison guards and prisoners in danger.

Convicts have killed prison guards or fellow inmates in full knowledge that they would exchange the misery of life imprisonment for a faster death if suicide is unavailable or if they are scared of something even worse (a literal Hell) in the event of suicide. Maybe even the promise of a Last Meal and Last Words in a life which has lost all meaning.     

That is such an unimaginably low exception to the rule, that it litterally doesn't merit discussion. Doesa con serving life (or the functional equivilent) wish everyday they were outside? Of course. Do the overwhelming majority turn into violent predators or otherwise in a sick way of thinking 'thrive'. You bet.

There are valid arguments against capital punishment, even if I disagree with many of them; but death penalty opponents need to be honest about the fact lifers will remain drastic threats to staff and other inmates, and most such inmates will gladly take the opportunity to do what they want without retribution rather than seeing capital punishment as a glorified form of suicide.

But then given the amount of anti-cop vitriol that runs endemic throughout the Atlas, I'm guessing the sympathy for threats to COs is limited, as the typical image of prison guards around here is more formed by movies like Shawshank Redemption (awesome though it is) than real life.

There. I said it.

So then Minnesota prisons must be WAY WAY more dangerous than Texas prisons then? And Canadian prisons have to be way more dangerous than in most states?

Yeah, no.

Please. I'm hardly saying capital punishment is the cure all for broken underfunded, understaffed prison systems. The fact remains a lifer in MN can kill a guard, staff member, or other inmate with total legal impunity. Think about that.

I'm not too sure I'd call being locked up in solitary confinement permently or sent to a Supermax facility (considering that Supermax prisons were built initially specifically for inmates deemed too dangerous for the general population) to be "total legal impunity". In fact I'd bet you'd find many if not most people would prefer going to death row than going to a Supermax which is not surprising if you have any clue what those places are like.

But honestly this is one issue where my view is it doesn't matter what I think personally, I find the death penalty completely incompatible with Christianity and I can't support it if I'm going to follow Jesus. I opposed it before, but there's no way I'm backsliding on that now.

First paragraph: I have practiced criminal law as either a prosecutor or defense attorney for over 20 years. Unlike you, I have been to prisons. I have investigated cases that occur in prison. I have dealt with clients, defendants, investigators, witnesses, and staff in prisons as my effing JOB for over two decades. And based on a couple tv shows and $hit you picked up on the internet you condensend to tell ME I don't know what the realities of prison life are??

Here's a plan, champ. While you're at it why don't you go teach Al a few things about the 80's miner strikes in England?> Or maybe educate Muon about physics or suburban Chicago politics? And while you're at it maybe you can tell Joe Republic what's what on the best places to really party in Vegas. Would that be pretentious and presumptives? Hell yes. But you couldn't possibly look more of an ass doing so than you do right now.

Second paragraph. That's fine. You and I can legitimately debate the theological differences we have there.

But DON'T accuse me of ignorance where you have exactly zero grounds to stand on.

I never said you were ignorant. I was just pointing out Supermaxes exist for exactly this reason, and the prospect of being stuck in one for decades is a lot more horrifying than death.

And with all this knowledge then if your statement that prisons in states without the death penalty are inherently more dangerous than states with it, then you should be able to provide some statistics to back it up. Much like how this is rather well cited.

Also as far as the point about Minnesota prisons go, consider that Pawlenty's proposal to reinstate the death penalty was voted down by a State Senate committee by a vote of 8-2, meaning that even two out of the four REPUBLICANS on the committee voted No. And these of course are State Senators, not posters on a message board who like to post things against cops and prison guards.

[H. Ross Peron]

On the balance this is a sensible thing, considering the massive costs and risks associated with the carrying out of the death penalty. At the same time, there seem to be at least some studies which indicate capital punishment has a deterrent value and even beyond that I see no reason to keep alive say  Anders Behring Breivik or Jared Lee Loughner or Robert Bales.

[Badger]

HP. Getting rid of the death penalty puts prison guards and prisoners in danger.

Convicts have killed prison guards or fellow inmates in full knowledge that they would exchange the misery of life imprisonment for a faster death if suicide is unavailable or if they are scared of something even worse (a literal Hell) in the event of suicide. Maybe even the promise of a Last Meal and Last Words in a life which has lost all meaning.      

That is such an unimaginably low exception to the rule, that it litterally doesn't merit discussion. Doesa con serving life (or the functional equivilent) wish everyday they were outside? Of course. Do the overwhelming majority turn into violent predators or otherwise in a sick way of thinking 'thrive'. You bet.

There are valid arguments against capital punishment, even if I disagree with many of them; but death penalty opponents need to be honest about the fact lifers will remain drastic threats to staff and other inmates, and most such inmates will gladly take the opportunity to do what they want without retribution rather than seeing capital punishment as a glorified form of suicide.

But then given the amount of anti-cop vitriol that runs endemic throughout the Atlas, I'm guessing the sympathy for threats to COs is limited, as the typical image of prison guards around here is more formed by movies like Shawshank Redemption (awesome though it is) than real life.

There. I said it.

So then Minnesota prisons must be WAY WAY more dangerous than Texas prisons then? And Canadian prisons have to be way more dangerous than in most states?

Yeah, no.

Please. I'm hardly saying capital punishment is the cure all for broken underfunded, understaffed prison systems. The fact remains a lifer in MN can kill a guard, staff member, or other inmate with total legal impunity. Think about that.

I'm not too sure I'd call being locked up in solitary confinement permently or sent to a Supermax facility (considering that Supermax prisons were built initially specifically for inmates deemed too dangerous for the general population) to be "total legal impunity". In fact I'd bet you'd find many if not most people would prefer going to death row than going to a Supermax which is not surprising if you have any clue what those places are like.

But honestly this is one issue where my view is it doesn't matter what I think personally, I find the death penalty completely incompatible with Christianity and I can't support it if I'm going to follow Jesus. I opposed it before, but there's no way I'm backsliding on that now.

First paragraph: I have practiced criminal law as either a prosecutor or defense attorney for over 20 years. Unlike you, I have been to prisons. I have investigated cases that occur in prison. I have dealt with clients, defendants, investigators, witnesses, and staff in prisons as my effing JOB for over two decades. And based on a couple tv shows and $hit you picked up on the internet you condensend to tell ME I don't know what the realities of prison life are??

Here's a plan, champ. While you're at it why don't you go teach Al a few things about the 80's miner strikes in England?> Or maybe educate Muon about physics or suburban Chicago politics? And while you're at it maybe you can tell Joe Republic what's what on the best places to really party in Vegas. Would that be pretentious and presumptives? Hell yes. But you couldn't possibly look more of an ass doing so than you do right now.

Second paragraph. That's fine. You and I can legitimately debate the theological differences we have there.

But DON'T accuse me of ignorance where you have exactly zero grounds to stand on.

I never said you were ignorant. I was just pointing out Supermaxes exist for exactly this reason, and the prospect of being stuck in one for decades is a lot more horrifying than death.

And with all this knowledge then if your statement that prisons in states without the death penalty are inherently more dangerous than states with it, then you should be able to provide some statistics to back it up. Much like how this is rather well cited.

Also as far as the point about Minnesota prisons go, consider that Pawlenty's proposal to reinstate the death penalty was voted down by a State Senate committee by a vote of 8-2, meaning that even two out of the four REPUBLICANS on the committee voted No. And these of course are State Senators, not posters on a message board who like to post things against cops and prison guards.

The last sentence of your post stated I would agree that lifer would prefer capital punishment if I had ANY idea (your empahsis) what conidtions in maximum security prisons are like. Yes, that's accusing me of ignorance. If you're going to walk that claim back, do a better job of it.

Second, what 'statement that prisons in states without the death penalty are inherently more dangerous than prisons in states without it' did I ever make? In fact, how did you completely ignore my post above where I said the EXACT OPPOSITE. I specifically stated there that capital punishment is not a panacea for prison violence compared to larger issues of sufficient staffing/funding.

The fact remains that lifers in non- death penalty states (actual and de facto), including those already in max security/admin seg, can kill with legal impunity.