Utah's state House votes 39-34 to reinstitute execution by firing squad
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  Utah's state House votes 39-34 to reinstitute execution by firing squad
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Author Topic: Utah's state House votes 39-34 to reinstitute execution by firing squad  (Read 8265 times)
SWE
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« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2015, 09:17:21 PM »

We should bring back crucifixion imo. Send a message.
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ag
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« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2015, 10:03:16 PM »

I don't understand why we need violent ways of capital punishment.

...As opposed to non-violent ways of killing people?

We tried. Then Europe got upset about it. I think one reason they're considering this is because European drug manufacturers are refusing to export to the United States sodium thiopental and other lethal-injection drugs.



I did not realize US had no pharmaceutical industry of its own. We now know the full-proof way Europe can make US succumb to its demands: ban Tylenol exports.

Big pharma is multinational and for tax reasons is usually incorporated in a low tax European state such as Ireland.  But even if it weren't, the desire to sell in European markets would keep them from wanted to sell their drugs for executions.

Wasn't the biggest argument against health reform that the high margins in the American market drive the product innovation, which the socialized European medicine, with its low profits would not generate? Or am I forgetting something?

Anyway, poisons are among the oldest pharmaceuticals known to humanity. To produce generic versions of a few chemicals, which have, mostly, been in public domain for generations, you do not need to be "big pharma". You are not talking of a cure for mallaria here.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2015, 11:14:41 PM »

I don't understand why we need violent ways of capital punishment.

...As opposed to non-violent ways of killing people?

We tried. Then Europe got upset about it. I think one reason they're considering this is because European drug manufacturers are refusing to export to the United States sodium thiopental and other lethal-injection drugs.



I did not realize US had no pharmaceutical industry of its own. We now know the full-proof way Europe can make US succumb to its demands: ban Tylenol exports.

Big pharma is multinational and for tax reasons is usually incorporated in a low tax European state such as Ireland.  But even if it weren't, the desire to sell in European markets would keep them from wanted to sell their drugs for executions.

Wasn't the biggest argument against health reform that the high margins in the American market drive the product innovation, which the socialized European medicine, with its low profits would not generate? Or am I forgetting something?

Anyway, poisons are among the oldest pharmaceuticals known to humanity. To produce generic versions of a few chemicals, which have, mostly, been in public domain for generations, you do not need to be "big pharma". You are not talking of a cure for malaria here.
Every little bit of profit counts, especially since there is very little to be made by selling for use in executions.  Even if the profits aren't as high as would be liked, there are still some profits to be made by selling to Europe in addition to America for a drug that has already been developed.  The argument you refer to is that if the expected profits made from a drug once it has been developed are reduced then those expected profits may not be enough to justify the expected cost of development. The general idea is sound, tho whether the expected profits would truly be lowered to that point is debatable.  However, we're talking not merely chemicals, but drugs which accordingly have to manufactured according to regulation and certified as such.  If merely killing were all that was required, there would be no need for such niceties, but since the standard is that executions in the US should be conducted as humanely as possible, precise and consistent dosages are wanted.

I'm not a fan of how capital punishment in the US is conducted, but it certainly is odd that those who oppose capital punishment under any circumstances are seeking to prevent more humane methods of execution from being used in hopes that by making executions less humane they will be ended,
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ag
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« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2015, 11:22:30 PM »

we're talking not merely chemicals, but drugs which accordingly have to manufactured according to regulation and certified as such. 

This

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pharmaceutical_companies_of_the_United_States

is an incomplete list of US pharmaceutical companies. You are telling me none of them are capable of producing drugs "according to regulations, and certified as such"? What ARE they doing then?

Push comes to shove, the government of the state of Texas could set up a little factory, if it really wanted. I know, that is socialism - but, hey, they do have SOME government departments there, donīt they?
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ag
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« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2015, 11:28:03 PM »


 it certainly is odd that those who oppose capital punishment under any circumstances are seeking to prevent more humane methods of execution from being used in hopes that by making executions less humane they will be ended,

They are, merely, following an advice of a wise old man, not to "tinker with the machinery of death".

I am sure you would be able to find many ways of doing disgusting things more humanely. For instance, if you give a woman some pills she could be raped without remembering it - arguably, she would be better off. But I somehow doubt you would be in favor of supplying those drugs to potential rapists - or would you?

If you want to go on executing people, do it yourself. As far as those strange foreigners are concerned, the difference between the electric chair and the lethal injection is pretty much irrelevant.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2015, 11:41:39 PM »

You continue to ignore the point that the market for execution pharmaceuticals is so small, it makes no sense to set up a company that does only that.  Were any of those companies you pointed out were to openly admit they did so, they'd lose so much other business that they'd lose money.

Also, where would the State of Texas obtain the precursor chemicals under your scenario? The ostracism that affects drug companies presently would affect their suppliers as well if they sold to Texas to make drugs for executions.  To set up the facilities that produced drugs and their precursor chemicals only for executions would be hideously expensive.  It's not as if even Texas is executing people at a rate that would make doing so feasible.
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ag
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« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2015, 12:02:26 AM »

You continue to ignore the point that the market for execution pharmaceuticals is so small, it makes no sense to set up a company that does only that.  Were any of those companies you pointed out were to openly admit they did so, they'd lose so much other business that they'd lose money.

Also, where would the State of Texas obtain the precursor chemicals under your scenario? The ostracism that affects drug companies presently would affect their suppliers as well if they sold to Texas to make drugs for executions.  To set up the facilities that produced drugs and their precursor chemicals only for executions would be hideously expensive.  It's not as if even Texas is executing people at a rate that would make doing so feasible.

If the State of Texas believes it is important to kill people in that way, it should pay. It is not that every other part of the death penalty process were not hideously expensive. Why should the drugs be any cheaper than the death row?  What are a few million dollars here or there? I am sure they could endow a Chair of Human Poisoning in some public university within the state, and the happy Texan professor chosen to fill it would do proper supervision. There is no magic involved in production of pharmaceuticals - it is done by regular humans, you do not have to have gone to Hogwarts to do it. And the quantities, as you say, are small: you do not need to scale the process up from a university lab, and those are pretty good in producing appropriate compounds and testing for quality.

All this whining about "bad foreigners refusing to participate in how we kill people, so they are guilty of us doing this in a crueler fashion than we want to" is ridiculous. To begin with, those foreigners do not care a fig about HOW you kill people. It is YOU who are worrying about "humane" methods of execution: not them. Nobody wants you to kill people "less painfully" - they want you to stop killing people, period. If making this appear a medical procedure makes you sleep sounder, nobody else thinks this is a positive development: they do not want you to sleep after an execution at all. If it becomes very expensive - well, nobody else asked you to do it, it is your problem. If saving money is more important than sound sleep - well, fine, it is your decision, do it the way you like. Just stop whining that nobody else wants to take part in the performance. It is your show: you do the honors, you pay the bill, and you do your prayer to whatever gods you have. All up to you and your laws.  Just donīt get excited about others thinking you are barbarians for doing it: you said you do not care about it so many times, we all believe you.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2015, 02:50:03 PM »

It's official: Firing squads in Utah allowed

SALT LAKE CITY – Utah became the only state to allow firing squads for executions Monday when Gov. Gary Herbert signed a law approving the controversial method's use when no lethal-injection drugs are available.

Herbert has said he finds the firing squad "a little bit gruesome," but Utah is a capital punishment state and needs a backup execution method in case a shortage of the drugs persists.

"We regret anyone ever commits the heinous crime of aggravated murder to merit the death penalty, and we prefer to use our primary method of lethal injection when such a sentence is issued," Herbert spokesman Marty Carpenter said. "However, when a jury makes the decision and a judge signs a death warrant, enforcing that lawful decision is the obligation of the executive branch."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/03/24/official-firing-squads-utah-allowed/70366174

It would have been better to simply abolish the death penalty instead ... Sad
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Zioneer
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« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2015, 06:07:29 PM »

It's official: Firing squads in Utah allowed

SALT LAKE CITY – Utah became the only state to allow firing squads for executions Monday when Gov. Gary Herbert signed a law approving the controversial method's use when no lethal-injection drugs are available.

Herbert has said he finds the firing squad "a little bit gruesome," but Utah is a capital punishment state and needs a backup execution method in case a shortage of the drugs persists.

"We regret anyone ever commits the heinous crime of aggravated murder to merit the death penalty, and we prefer to use our primary method of lethal injection when such a sentence is issued," Herbert spokesman Marty Carpenter said. "However, when a jury makes the decision and a judge signs a death warrant, enforcing that lawful decision is the obligation of the executive branch."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/03/24/official-firing-squads-utah-allowed/70366174

It would have been better to simply abolish the death penalty instead ... Sad

It's Utah, conservatives here are vengeful and vicious.
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« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2015, 08:16:05 PM »

Honestly, the idea that execution of all things should somehow be made 'non-gruesome', as if its 'gruesomeness' has anything at all to do with what's really happening, is possibly even more repulsive and anti-human than the insistence on executing people is itself.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2015, 09:23:06 PM »

Honestly, the idea that execution of all things should somehow be made 'non-gruesome', as if its 'gruesomeness' has anything at all to do with what's really happening, is possibly even more repulsive and anti-human than the insistence on executing people is itself.

The one positive of it being gruesome is that seeing the gore of a person executed by firing squad is a reminder of just how violent it is to kill someone made clearer than in a lethal injection. Here there is no sugar coating it.
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ag
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« Reply #61 on: March 24, 2015, 11:19:31 PM »

Honestly, the idea that execution of all things should somehow be made 'non-gruesome', as if its 'gruesomeness' has anything at all to do with what's really happening, is possibly even more repulsive and anti-human than the insistence on executing people is itself.

The one positive of it being gruesome is that seeing the gore of a person executed by firing squad is a reminder of just how violent it is to kill someone made clearer than in a lethal injection. Here there is no sugar coating it.

Do you mean they are going to televise them?
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H. Ross Peron
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« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2015, 01:14:26 AM »

Good. I've always disliked the American tendency to sugarcoat and whitewash even at the expense of creating Rube Goldberg mechanisms that cost more and are worse in effect. Better the firing squad or guillotine than lethal injection.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2015, 12:19:00 PM »

Honestly, the idea that execution of all things should somehow be made 'non-gruesome', as if its 'gruesomeness' has anything at all to do with what's really happening, is possibly even more repulsive and anti-human than the insistence on executing people is itself.

The one positive of it being gruesome is that seeing the gore of a person executed by firing squad is a reminder of just how violent it is to kill someone made clearer than in a lethal injection. Here there is no sugar coating it.

Do you mean they are going to televise them?

...no?
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afleitch
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« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2015, 01:40:29 PM »

Honestly, the idea that execution of all things should somehow be made 'non-gruesome', as if its 'gruesomeness' has anything at all to do with what's really happening, is possibly even more repulsive and anti-human than the insistence on executing people is itself.

The one positive of it being gruesome is that seeing the gore of a person executed by firing squad is a reminder of just how violent it is to kill someone made clearer than in a lethal injection. Here there is no sugar coating it.

While I agree with both of you, let's remind ourselves that state execution should never actually be gruesome whether as a matter of fact or whether trying to make a public statement, as it is in nearly every other country that carries it out.
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« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2015, 05:02:45 PM »

I oppose the death penalty, but I think that if we have it at all, executions should be humane, yet they might as well be gruesome.  For both those reasons, the guillotine and firing squad are both preferable to lethal injection.
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« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2015, 05:53:30 PM »

Convicts should be eaten alive, preferably by the state legislature after particularly weighty sessions.
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2015, 08:03:43 PM »

A good explanation of how Utah's procedure will work, for those who are curious:
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http://www.sltrib.com/news/2326783-155/firing-squad-gets-final-ok-so

I oppose the death penalty, but I think that if we have it at all, executions should be humane, yet they might as well be gruesome.  For both those reasons, the guillotine and firing squad are both preferable to lethal injection.


I'll ask again, what makes everyone think the firing squad sound would be more humane than lethal injection?  People keep asserting that notion in this thread without any real explanation or data.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2015, 08:14:29 PM »
« Edited: March 25, 2015, 10:54:48 PM by Deus Naturae »

Interesting. What would you guys say in that two-minute window before your existence was extinguished forever?

I'd either go on a rant, try to say something funny enough to get one of the executioners to laugh or at least crack a smile, or say something that would make the executioners feel terrible (not about shooting me, but about their lives in general).

Or, if I wanted to really get in one of their heads, I'd try to eavesdrop on their conversations, find out the name of one of the guards' spouses/girlfriends/female relatives and then just be like "I ed Emily" or whoever right before the two minutes (and my time in this world) just to mess with him. He'd be so freaked out at how I could even know her name. He'd probably figure that I just overheard her name being mentioned once (then again, I suspect that most prison guards fall within the <100 IQ spectrum), but there would always be one small part of his brain that would always wonder...

Edit: just realized the last paragraph makes no sense since the guards and the executioners wouldn't be the same people. Plus, I hadn't realized that the executed weren't allowed to look at their exterminators until Shua pointed that out. That's just depressing.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2015, 08:20:17 PM »

A good explanation of how Utah's procedure will work, for those who are curious:
Quote
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http://www.sltrib.com/news/2326783-155/firing-squad-gets-final-ok-so

I oppose the death penalty, but I think that if we have it at all, executions should be humane, yet they might as well be gruesome.  For both those reasons, the guillotine and firing squad are both preferable to lethal injection.


I'll ask again, what makes everyone think the firing squad sound would be more humane than lethal injection?  People keep asserting that notion in this thread without any real explanation or data.

It's not more humane, but it's more gruesome. More gruesome means it's more likely than there will be a backlash against death penalty.
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shua
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« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2015, 09:24:30 PM »

The prisoner is seated in a chair??  He is shot through slots in a wall?   So he does not even have the small dignity of being able to stand with his face to the people shooting him.  Disgusting.
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« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2015, 11:45:13 PM »

I prefer the guillotine - the only fully reliable and painless method. But I'll take firing squad over lethal injection, as death probably comes faster with the former.
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« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2015, 12:20:50 PM »

Nitrogen asphyxiation. It's swift and painless. It doesn't depend upon finding a vein. Liquid nitrogen (which expands quickly to a volume of 643 of the liquid) is inexpensive and readily available. The condemned can stand, be seated, or be lying down.   
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