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FEMA Camp Administrator
Cathcon
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« Reply #625 on: February 08, 2017, 10:14:33 AM »

May I please remind you all that for that sort of posts, there's this thread?
I'm confused about what the delineating line between those two threads is supposed to be.

Reservoir posts are short, simple yet clever. Gallery posts are thoughtful, articulate, complex, and take effort.
Brevity can be scintillating.

Kneejerk contrarianism spurred on by your lack of fulfillment in the real world, however, is not.
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Sven
plainstone89
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« Reply #626 on: February 09, 2017, 05:03:47 PM »

Let's hear it for Silent Cal.

Let me demonstrate how to say this in a nice, respectful, and calm way.

I am not entirely 100% comfortable with transgenderism. I am not sure that gender identity is not a result of environmental conditioning and just biology, although I do believe there are biological roots. I fully admit to being a conservative on my personal take on transgender people in the sense that I question if they aren't being influenced by outside environmental factors in determining their gender.

Regardless of my opinions, transgender people deserve the full rights the Constitution affords them, which is the right to marry, be with whoever they want, and to have the pronoun that they are biologically at the time (if they are in transition, the future gender). They are entitled to the full respect I would give any citizen on the street.

It's not my business. It doesn't hurt anyone (e.g, the unborn). Therefore, to me, my opinion on a personal scale of transgenderism is moot and how we treat them is a matter of social respect and Constitutional deference to the rights they enjoy.

There, that is and should be the conservative response to discussing this issue.


(P.S. Never thought I'd say that.)
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Higgs
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« Reply #627 on: February 10, 2017, 11:16:24 AM »

What exactly justifies someone earning a billion dollars, anyway? Unless you don't think economics has a moral component that isn't "I've got mine, now f-ck off." In which case, I really don't know what to say, other than some cliches about how the American Cult of Individualism that sanctifies private property rights as the highest moral good is utterly corrosive to society, makes Baby Jesus cry, etc.
if there was only so much "wealth" in the world and it was impossible to make more you'd have an excellent point.

Exactly. We have an entire generation of people who grew up being taught that the economy is a piece of pie that everybody takes from; the rich got more of the pie and poor got less. That's the most ignorant analysis of free market economics ever put forward.

The reason people are justified in being billionaires is that the capital they have accumulated is only a fraction of the capital that they have generated for other people not just through jobs but also basic consumerism.

Rich people don't just sit on their money. They hire contractors and construction workers to build them huge towers and mansions, pay factory workers to build them nice cars and yachts and airplanes. There are entire industries propped up only on Forbes 500 members.

When people here statistics like "the Forbes 500 total net worth dropped 8% last year" they think they somehow won the zero-sum game of the economy. In truth, we all lost.

Great post, the socialist avatars in that thread do not understand economics.
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Higgs
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« Reply #628 on: February 10, 2017, 02:19:38 PM »

There's something sort of adorable about people who have a Hazlitt-level understanding of economics and assume that there's nothing left for them to learn. It's like a puppy with a habit of stealing your mittens: Cute for a while, but eventually it becomes irritating.

I never made that assumption, and I don't think Vcrew did either, it's just clearly wrong to look at wealth in the economy as a big slice of pie, a zero-sum game.
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RI
realisticidealist
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« Reply #629 on: February 10, 2017, 02:21:00 PM »

There's something sort of adorable about people who have a Hazlitt-level understanding of economics and assume that there's nothing left for them to learn. It's like a puppy with a habit of stealing your mittens: Cute for a while, but eventually it becomes irritating.

No one "understands" economics. I almost have my PhD in it, and I certainly don't "understand" it. People with Bachelors in econ don't "understand" it. People who've taken a couple courses certainly don't understand it. Economics is fickle, counterintuitive, caveat-riddled, vast, amorphous, and often inscrutable. Trying to understand economics is a hopelessly Sisyphean endeavor; anyone who says otherwise is selling something.
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Eharding
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« Reply #630 on: February 10, 2017, 02:48:03 PM »

There's something sort of adorable about people who have a Hazlitt-level understanding of economics and assume that there's nothing left for them to learn. It's like a puppy with a habit of stealing your mittens: Cute for a while, but eventually it becomes irritating.

No one "understands" economics. I almost have my PhD in it, and I certainly don't "understand" it. People with Bachelors in econ don't "understand" it. People who've taken a couple courses certainly don't understand it. Economics is fickle, counterintuitive, caveat-riddled, vast, amorphous, and often inscrutable. Trying to understand economics is a hopelessly Sisyphean endeavor; anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

-Mostly true.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #631 on: February 11, 2017, 11:26:04 AM »

There's something sort of adorable about people who have a Hazlitt-level understanding of economics and assume that there's nothing left for them to learn. It's like a puppy with a habit of stealing your mittens: Cute for a while, but eventually it becomes irritating.

No one "understands" economics. I almost have my PhD in it, and I certainly don't "understand" it. People with Bachelors in econ don't "understand" it. People who've taken a couple courses certainly don't understand it. Economics is fickle, counterintuitive, caveat-riddled, vast, amorphous, and often inscrutable. Trying to understand economics is a hopelessly Sisyphean endeavor; anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

-Mostly true.

no
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #632 on: February 11, 2017, 12:54:29 PM »

As someone noted on AAD, the sentiment makes more sense if you replace "economics" (the subject) with "the economy" (the object of study). As written it makes economics sound a little bit too much like the Tao. "That which can be named is not the true economics."

But isn't the Economy as a notion essentially Taoist anyway?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #633 on: February 11, 2017, 01:04:19 PM »

As someone noted on AAD, the sentiment makes more sense if you replace "economics" (the subject) with "the economy" (the object of study). As written it makes economics sound a little bit too much like the Tao. "That which can be named is not the true economics."

But isn't the Economy as a notion essentially Taoist anyway?

jao
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #634 on: February 11, 2017, 03:58:50 PM »

As someone noted on AAD, the sentiment makes more sense if you replace "economics" (the subject) with "the economy" (the object of study). As written it makes economics sound a little bit too much like the Tao. "That which can be named is not the true economics."

But isn't the Economy as a notion essentially Taoist anyway?

jao

Dao!
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #635 on: February 11, 2017, 10:56:30 PM »

There's something sort of adorable about people who have a Hazlitt-level understanding of economics and assume that there's nothing left for them to learn. It's like a puppy with a habit of stealing your mittens: Cute for a while, but eventually it becomes irritating.

No one "understands" economics. I almost have my PhD in it, and I certainly don't "understand" it. People with Bachelors in econ don't "understand" it. People who've taken a couple courses certainly don't understand it. Economics is fickle, counterintuitive, caveat-riddled, vast, amorphous, and often inscrutable. Trying to understand economics is a hopelessly Sisyphean endeavor; anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

-Mostly true.

Thanks for rating the statement, Politifact.
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Lachi
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« Reply #636 on: February 12, 2017, 05:08:52 PM »

...And by that I mean, I don't know how you put up with this place. Let it be clear - I'm not leaving. I would never be able to do that. But, God, this place has really turned to sh**t. I mean, the Presidential boards are all filled with Nazis, delusional Trumpists, and people who think Elizabeth Warren is more unelectable than al-Baghdadi and Tulsi Gabbard is the left's savior and will win a 50 state landslide. Those boards never get any news put on them, it's meaningless speculation and poor Morden trying to keep everyone on topic. It's not like the rest of the site is better, either. Every day a new spammer appears, and 2 of the 3 modadmins (i. e. people who can do anything about it) are inactive as hell. The midterm boards are also full of [Random name] could run for [Insignificant house seat].

And that's not the worst of it. Every Individual Politics thread is a page-long argument between two people who are usually both wrong. I'm not yearning for the glory days of eight years ago - I wasn't here then. I'm yearning for the "glory days" of ing April 2016, when I thought it was pretty bad. There's no reason to check any of the political boards any more, because they're all boring or idiotic or both. Moderators are incompetent, unwilling to ban literal Nazis because "opinions Smiley", but flipping out over swears and stuff. Everything meaningful on this site has gone to sh**t. And god bless the few of you (Averroes, Virginia, etc.) who try to keep everyone's heads on straight, but it's a real uphill battle.

Again, I won't leave - I have too much of a commitment, especially to Atlasia and Lumine's board and sh**t (God, for once, that's the good part! What a crazy place this is). I know that leaving or whatever will only make the problem worse, but it's infuriating. There's just nothing left outside of the bottom five boards that's worth it for me to keep checking. I only get myself mad. AAD does all this stuff better, and I'm not just saying this to shamelessly promote the better, elitist forum like most people. They do everything better over there, and it's so much more worthwhile to spend time on an intelligent, well-moderated, civil forum than this hellhole.

I wish you all luck, and I hope we can find a way out of this mess, because, God, it looks bleak.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #637 on: February 15, 2017, 05:28:33 AM »

Excellent discussion by Hash about why Quebec City is so conservative.

It's a very interesting topic, one which is often presented as a bit of a 'mystery' (you can find a lot of newspaper op-eds or blog posts in French about "le mystère de Québec", mostly from PQ-sympathizing leftists wondering why the capital of their future pays is so terribly right-wing). I haven't found much in the way of more academic treatment of the issue, and Pierre Drouilly's idea of the Québec tranquille (to explain the conservatism/non-nationalism of parts of Francophone Quebec, including Quebec City's surroundings - i.e. Chaudière-Appalaches, Beauce, Bas-Saint-Laurent etc.) doesn't really hold up for the city itself.

Quebec City's conservatism is a suburban phenomenon - the inner city doesn't vote for conservatives, and in fact they tend to do pretty poorly there (almost as poorly as they do in demographically similar parts of Montreal); the older working-class, low-income and nowadays gentrified/up-and-coming neighbourhoods (Saint-Jean-Baptiste, Saint-Roch, parts of Limoilou and, to a lesser extent, Saint-Sauveur) do not vote for conservatives either - in fact, they're generally solidly left-wing and nationalist, with a very strong QS and Option nationale vote in the last two provincial elections (particularly 2014). In addition, the wealthiest, highly educated suburban neighbourhoods - Sillery, parts of Sainte-Foy and Cap-Rouge, while typically federalist (i.e. provincial Liberal) haven't voted for conservatives very often either - you can see this in the last federal and provincial elections (but also in 2012, 2008 etc.).

So, it's the large swathes of nondescript and forgettable middle-class (neither very wealthy or poor) suburbia (though also exurbia/small satellite towns) where the ADQ/CAQ and federal Conservatives have consistently done best, where they've won their seats and where the bulk of their support comes from. Rather importantly, the separatists (PQ/Bloc) have basically become also-rans since 2003/2006 here, and it's become a matter of pretty serious concern for the PQ in the last two provincial elections. Already in 1995, the Oui to independence had 'under performed' in suburban Francophone Quebec City (and is one of the best explanations for the narrow loss). Given these demographics, it's not all that surprising that they'd favour the right or that they'd have a penchant for anti-government right-populism. The mystery is that, in other regions of Quebec, particularly Francophone suburban Montreal, demographically similar middle-class suburbs aren't right-wing and/or anti-nationalist -- or, more accurately, if they are, they don't vote for the right-wing parties (ADQ/CAQ or federal Tories) although they are susceptible to (2007 provincial elections).

Without being able to say whether these explanations hold up to close scrutiny, here are a few possible explanations as to why suburban/exurban Quebec City is so right-wing:

Quebec City is a government city, but that doesn't mean that everybody there works for the government: per the 2011 NHS, 15% worked in 'public administration' (which is not a lot less than Ottawa), in addition to people classified under other industries whose jobs depend on provincial government contracts or what have you. There's also no guarantee that public servants vote uniformly against the right-wing party: a lot has been made of provincial public servants not voting Oui in 1995 because they were fretful that they'd lose their jobs with the PQ's (boneheaded) promise to re-employ federal public servants. In any case, the separatist party has consistently underperformed in basically every provincial and federal election in the city since then.

Quebec City is often overshadowed by the bigger city, Montreal - and that's particularly true in culture, entertainment/arts and sports. Quebec City is the historic city, the political city; Montreal is everything else, it's the big provincial metropolis. The left-wing, nationalist 'urban intelligentsia' of Montreal has tended to look down on Quebec City - often with some kind of disdain, and election results have reinforced that condescension. I mean, you can ask many educated/politicized Francophones in Montreal about Quebec City and I think you're guaranteed to get some kind of comment about how it's a weird city with somewhat crazy, almost inbred hick-ish people who listen to trash talk radio and elect crazy right-wingers. In response, Quebec City has clearly been seeking to affirm itself, seeking recognition and civic pride -- their current mayor, the populist-ish loudmouth Régis Labeaume, elected with Soviet-style majorities in the aforementioned suburbia, is a good example of that; as are all his projects, or the massive local support for the defunct Nordiques. An argument can be made that, being secondary to Montreal, Quebec City distrusts Montreal 'elites' (like much of the nationalistic intelligentsia) and this breeds protest votes and/or sympathy for anti-elitist, populist right discourses.

The city's lack of a large visible minority or Anglo population, alluded to above, is only a partial and limited explanation: many lily-white Francophone Québécois parts of the province don't have Quebec City's "odd" politics (i.e. they generally vote pretty solidly PQ), a good example being the North Shore suburbs of Montreal, although that doesn't necessarily mean they're not ideologically right-leaning. However, the lack of ethnic/linguistic diversity likely plays a role, even if I don't think it's the main one. Montreal is the cosmopolitan, multicultural and diverse metropolis and Quebec City has none of that - so many younger people in the latter are tempted to move to the former to have that multicultural experience (or, more practically, to get a job or go to university out of town). It's also important to place the city in its immediate regional context: it is at the centre of the province's most conservative region (Chaudière-Appalaches, Bas-Saint-Laurent, Beauce, Portneuf, La Jacques-Cartier) -- although it's not only only conservative, but also traditionally non-nationalist in spite of being heavily Francophone (Beauce is probably the most homogeneously Francophone Québécois region in the province), something which is quite obvious from recent federal elections, although these are also the rural regions which voted for the créditistes in the 1960s. The late Pierre Drouilly is, to my knowledge, the only academic who looked into this phenomenon in depth, and his conclusion about what he called le Québec tranquille was that it was an older, blue-collar, lower-income, less-educated (but not poor) region. These demographics, even if Francophone, have always had below-average support for the nationalist cause. This was quite obvious in 1995. We can assume that, in the absence of international immigration, Quebec City's population growth (and that of its exurbs now) which isn't from natural growth, largely comes from the surrounding rural areas, many of which are continuing to decline.

This 2011 blog post (despite being a blog post, the writer appears to be well-informed, not an idiot and educated) and this 2007 comment piece from a disaffected former Lévesque PQ minister (both in French) make an interesting point: wealth in Quebec City, unlike in Montreal, is neither obvious nor ostentatious (I'd also add that it also isn't associated with the old White-English ogre), so popular resentment is not directed at an easily identifiable wealthy elite (or, to add, an old economic elite historically defined by the minority language), but rather against the 'overpaid' public servant, municipal employee (Quebec's loathed cols-bleus municipal 'labour aristocracy') or another target of right-populist rage. The 2007 piece I linked to said that provincial civil servants earn less than the municipal employees, and the private sector knows it earns less than any public servant. Mix that in with anti-tax and anti-government sentiments, and voilà. To use him as an example again, Régis Labeaume is usually in the news whenever he's going on about a feud with municipal employees over their pension fund or something.

In 2003, the PQ was tossed out in every seat in the city besides Agnès Maltais' downtown seat (Taschereau), which incidentally remains the lone PQ seat in the city today. Like in Montreal and its suburbs, there was widespread anger with the PQ that year over its imposed municipal amalgamations (unlike in Montreal, only two former - small - municipalities later voted to de-amalgamate in Quebec City). In suburban Quebec City, while amalgamation rage has died off, the PQ likely remains seen as a high-tax, 'big-government' party, as well as being poor 'defenders' of the city's interests (likely self-reinforcing since, by not electing PQ members, they don't get much representation in a PQ government, although Quebec is probably bound to be ruled by the PLQ Mafia forever now so that's moot).

The talk-radio point is important as well, as has been mentioned by several posts here. Quebec City is notorious for its very popular crass hard-right talk radio shows, and two of their most famous hosts have sought elected office: Jeff Fillion, who ran for mayor in 2009 (but did poorly), and André Arthur, the independent-conservative (cryptofascist) MP for Portneauf-Jacques-Cartier for two terms (2006-2011); both are (pretty crass) right-wing anti-separatists, in both cases because they say an independent Quebec would be a socialist hellscape. Whether this affection for right-wing talk radio is a cause or effect of Quebec City's "odd" politics is unclear.
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they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
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« Reply #638 on: February 16, 2017, 09:37:07 AM »

What the US did in 1948 (and the 30 years that followed) was shameful and Italy is still today suffering from the traumatic consequences of their meddling.

Guess what? Two wrongs don't make a right.

No it was the best thing that happened to Italy. Look at Czechoslovakia. It probably saved hundreds of thousands of lives, and Italy is about 4 times richer than it would have been if it had suffered under a Communist dictatorship. "Eurocomunism" was decades away at that point. Communists in any office meant one vote, one time, and then mass anti-Semitic purges following the break with Tito.

I don't think people comprehend how awful those Stalinist regimes were. They make Putin's Russia look like Sweden. Really, the only thing comparable today is North Korea.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
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« Reply #639 on: February 16, 2017, 11:07:30 PM »

Generic platitudes about muh commies are now the height of hindsight, according to the still hilariously-named BRTD. Roll Eyes
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #640 on: February 17, 2017, 12:07:03 AM »

Generic platitudes about muh commies are now the height of hindsight, according to the still hilariously-named BRTD. Roll Eyes
Is that what BRTD stands for?
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they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
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« Reply #641 on: February 17, 2017, 01:13:14 AM »
« Edited: February 17, 2017, 01:18:03 AM by JAIL FOR FLYNN »

Generic platitudes about muh commies are now the height of hindsight, according to the still hilariously-named BRTD. Roll Eyes

There's two things that made me completely turn against communism:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=6976;sa=showPosts
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=6269;sa=showPosts

And of course a realization that if there was any value to Marxism whatsoever, then why does no one except for edgy teenagers and college kids support it today?
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mencken
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« Reply #642 on: February 17, 2017, 09:35:29 AM »

I'm not enough of a utilitarian to justify taking someone else's life, which is what this question amounts to. If, for instance, I were to rephrase the question with the caveat that if your answer to this question is at least one life, then it is your life that will be taken first, people in this thread would be a lot less gung ho. Yet you are all willing to sacrifice other people's lives.
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Nathan
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« Reply #643 on: February 17, 2017, 02:29:38 PM »

Generic platitudes about muh commies are now the height of hindsight, according to the still hilariously-named BRTD. Roll Eyes

There's two things that made me completely turn against communism:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=6976;sa=showPosts
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=6269;sa=showPosts

And of course a realization that if there was any value to Marxism whatsoever, then why does no one except for edgy teenagers and college kids support it today?

If there was any value to hipster Christianity whatsoever, then why does no one except for hipsters practice it?
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #644 on: February 17, 2017, 02:32:11 PM »


So, Atlas posters determines yout outlook?
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they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
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« Reply #645 on: February 17, 2017, 03:29:05 PM »

Generic platitudes about muh commies are now the height of hindsight, according to the still hilariously-named BRTD. Roll Eyes

There's two things that made me completely turn against communism:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=6976;sa=showPosts
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=6269;sa=showPosts

And of course a realization that if there was any value to Marxism whatsoever, then why does no one except for edgy teenagers and college kids support it today?

If there was any value to hipster Christianity whatsoever, then why does no one except for hipsters practice it?

My lead pastor is a 45-year old father of two who lives in Edina.


So, Atlas posters determines yout outlook?

Advocates of an ideology saying utterly horrifying things do, yes. On Atlas and elsewhere.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #646 on: February 17, 2017, 11:38:48 PM »

Generic platitudes about muh commies are now the height of hindsight, according to the still hilariously-named BRTD. Roll Eyes

There's two things that made me completely turn against communism:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=6976;sa=showPosts
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=6269;sa=showPosts

And of course a realization that if there was any value to Marxism whatsoever, then why does no one except for edgy teenagers and college kids support it today?

If there was any value to hipster Christianity whatsoever, then why does no one except for hipsters practice it?

My lead pastor is a 45-year old father of two who lives in Edina.

Exactly, and the point you made is similarly silly.
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they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
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« Reply #647 on: February 17, 2017, 11:41:02 PM »

Generic platitudes about muh commies are now the height of hindsight, according to the still hilariously-named BRTD. Roll Eyes

There's two things that made me completely turn against communism:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=6976;sa=showPosts
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=6269;sa=showPosts

And of course a realization that if there was any value to Marxism whatsoever, then why does no one except for edgy teenagers and college kids support it today?

If there was any value to hipster Christianity whatsoever, then why does no one except for hipsters practice it?

My lead pastor is a 45-year old father of two who lives in Edina.

Exactly, and the point you made is similarly silly.

So Marxists exist today who aren't Snowstalker-ish edgelords, people who casually talk about genocide and gulags as something completely necessary and OK and/or can only communicate in unreadably dense walls of text? Then why are they virtually impossible to find? I mean you'd think this forum with its wide variety of ideologies would attract at least a few.

None of this has anything to do with how terrible Italian communists circa 1948 were of course.
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Nathan
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« Reply #648 on: February 17, 2017, 11:49:07 PM »

Generic platitudes about muh commies are now the height of hindsight, according to the still hilariously-named BRTD. Roll Eyes

There's two things that made me completely turn against communism:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=6976;sa=showPosts
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?action=profile;u=6269;sa=showPosts

And of course a realization that if there was any value to Marxism whatsoever, then why does no one except for edgy teenagers and college kids support it today?

If there was any value to hipster Christianity whatsoever, then why does no one except for hipsters practice it?

My lead pastor is a 45-year old father of two who lives in Edina.

Exactly, and the point you made is similarly silly.

So Marxists exist today who aren't Snowstalker-ish edgelords, people who casually talk about genocide and gulags as something completely necessary and OK and/or can only communicate in unreadably dense walls of text? Then why are they virtually impossible to find? I mean you'd think this forum with its wide variety of ideologies would attract at least a few.

None of this has anything to do with how terrible Italian communists circa 1948 were of course.

Well, for one, the way I look at the world has Marxist influences. I'm friends with multiple Marxists. They tend not to spend their time on political forums.
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« Reply #649 on: February 18, 2017, 12:04:05 AM »

Do any of them make excuses for the Soviet Union and North Korea?
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