NE 3: Sirnick Is A Terrorist Amendment (Passed)
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  NE 3: Sirnick Is A Terrorist Amendment (Passed)
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Author Topic: NE 3: Sirnick Is A Terrorist Amendment (Passed)  (Read 1063 times)
Sopranos Republican
Matt from VT
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« on: February 17, 2015, 01:01:35 PM »
« edited: February 25, 2015, 02:23:56 PM by Speaker Matt »

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Sponsor: Lt. Governor Adam Griffin

Mr. Griffin, you have 36 hours to begin advocating for this.
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SawxDem
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2015, 02:22:15 PM »

Obviously this will be signed as soon as it hits my desk.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2015, 02:27:32 PM »

I believe the recent development in New York may be of interest for legislators while considering proposal as this one Smiley
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cinyc
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2015, 02:29:12 PM »

There are a few technical issues with this bill.  First, the accused needs to be afforded a trial before the CJO.  We also might want to specify who should bring the case before the CJO.  Since we didn't have an Attorney General, it's not clear who that should be.  Second, it should only be a crime to delete such threads with malicious intent.  As Speaker, I know I sometimes screwed things up by posting bills in the improper order.  Quickly rectifying something like that shouldn't be a crime.

We also might want to just mimic the language that the Senate is currently working on instead of going out on our own.

I will let the sponsor speak before proposing amendments.
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SWE
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« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2015, 02:37:56 PM »

Do regional governments have power to ban users from officeholding?
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Blair
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« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2015, 03:10:42 PM »

The legal aspect regarding Sirnick is in limbo-we can't put him on trial because he's de-registered, and we can't take any action because he hasn't been put on trial. As GM Kalwejt says there doesn't appear to any doubt.

We could even extend the bill to say that anyone found guilty of the Anti-Terrorism Act is barred from office. I also agree that it should only apply for malicious deleting as well
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2015, 05:16:59 PM »

The legal aspect regarding Sirnick is in limbo-we can't put him on trial because he's de-registered, and we can't take any action because he hasn't been put on trial. As GM Kalwejt says there doesn't appear to any doubt.

The law cannot be retroactive. Even if SirNick remained in Atlasia, it would be impossible to charge him for an offense that wasn't created until after he destroyed the records (as the Anti-terrorism Act was just recently passed).

On a side note, unless there's a clear provision against an attainder (as the RL U.S. Constitution), passing a simple bill attainting SirNick as a traitor and declaring him a fugitive outlawing, would be a hell of an interesting development xD
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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2015, 01:38:57 AM »
« Edited: February 18, 2015, 01:42:28 AM by Sawx, King in the North »

There are a few technical issues with this bill.  First, the accused needs to be afforded a trial before the CJO.  We also might want to specify who should bring the case before the CJO.  Since we didn't have an Attorney General, it's not clear who that should be.  Second, it should only be a crime to delete such threads with malicious intent.  As Speaker, I know I sometimes screwed things up by posting bills in the improper order.  Quickly rectifying something like that shouldn't be a crime.

We also might want to just mimic the language that the Senate is currently working on instead of going out on our own.

I will let the sponsor speak before proposing amendments.

I'd propose some, but I can't. I'd also like someone to bring the first up, and I'd like to take a look at the second.

The legal aspect regarding Sirnick is in limbo-we can't put him on trial because he's de-registered, and we can't take any action because he hasn't been put on trial. As GM Kalwejt says there doesn't appear to any doubt.

The law cannot be retroactive. Even if SirNick remained in Atlasia, it would be impossible to charge him for an offense that wasn't created until after he destroyed the records (as the Anti-terrorism Act was just recently passed).

On a side note, unless there's a clear provision against an attainder (as the RL U.S. Constitution), passing a simple bill attainting SirNick as a traitor and declaring him a fugitive outlawing, would be a hell of an interesting development xD

I'm fairly sure arson against government property is terrorism. If SirNick re-enters the country, I pray that the Attorney General prosecutes him to the fullest extent.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2015, 03:06:27 AM »

I think the intent of this amendment is rather straightforward: to send a clear message that acts of terrorism will not be tolerated. I'm perfectly willing to allow amendments to this to ensure the maximum chance of it holding up when/if tested and understand there are currently plenty of holes, and likewise would like to encourage we re-revisit this matter at the federal level to amend our constitution accordingly. If it's in the Constitution, then it's constitutional. Wink
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Blair
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« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2015, 05:01:46 PM »

Did some research on a bill of Attainder, and it looks like it's unconstitutional. In regards to SirNick we should contact the CJO about the arson, and try him in absentia. Here's my amendment

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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2015, 03:24:08 PM »

Amendment is friendly.
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cinyc
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2015, 03:57:59 PM »

Another amendment to make it clear there needs to be a trial:

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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2015, 04:05:35 PM »

Amendment is friendly.

This should be the text as of now:


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Sopranos Republican
Matt from VT
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2015, 02:37:47 AM »

Alright time for a vote on this. Voting shall be open for 48 hours or until all representatives have voted. Please vote: AYE, NAY, or Abstain.
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Sopranos Republican
Matt from VT
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2015, 02:43:23 AM »

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^The final text of this bill for reference.
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Sopranos Republican
Matt from VT
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2015, 02:43:57 AM »

AYE
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Blair
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2015, 02:54:45 AM »

AYE
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2015, 07:20:46 AM »

Aye
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SNJ1985
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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2015, 01:28:24 PM »

Abstain
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cinyc
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« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2015, 01:57:04 PM »

Aye
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Sopranos Republican
Matt from VT
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« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2015, 02:23:45 PM »

By a vote of 4-0-1 the bill has passed, and will go to the governor for his signature/veto.
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MyRescueKittehRocks
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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2015, 02:40:40 PM »

This violates the national Constituition. No bills of attainder or ex post facto are allowed and this is such.

Article 1 Section 6 Clause 1 and Section 7 Clause 3 of the current Atlasian Constituition
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cinyc
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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2015, 02:58:51 PM »

This violates the national Constituition. No bills of attainder or ex post facto are allowed and this is such.

Article 1 Section 6 Clause 1 and Section 7 Clause 3 of the current Atlasian Constituition

Despite the Amendment's name, it would not and could not apply to Sirnick.  It will apply to anyone who does what Sirnick did in the future.  Past officeholder would apply to, say, me, if after this Assembly dies and I am no longer an Assemblyman,  delete the threads I made as Speaker way back when.
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cinyc
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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2015, 03:02:37 PM »

By a vote of 4-0-1 the bill has passed, and will go to the governor for his signature/veto.

This is a proposed Constituitional amendment that has received a majority vote of all voting and all Assemblyman. Per the Constituition, the governor doesn't need to sign it. It will automatically go to the voters for their approval next month.
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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2015, 03:53:10 PM »
« Edited: February 25, 2015, 05:43:50 PM by Sawx, King in the North »

This violates the national Constituition. No bills of attainder or ex post facto are allowed and this is such.

Article 1 Section 6 Clause 1 and Section 7 Clause 3 of the current Atlasian Constituition

I'm charging him with terrorism over the classical definition, not this one.

EDIT: also signed
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