What US election was the first you consider democratic?

[The Mikado]

Should be self-explanatory. I think there's a strong case for 1920 outside of the South and 1968 inside Dixie. (Those 98% Democratic returns in South Carolina don't exactly inspire confidence even without widespread voter suppression).

1972 is for those of you that feel that 18 voting age is critical to the democratic label, I don't.

[sparkey]

"Democratic" doesn't imply "complete enfranchisement," otherwise Athenian democracy wouldn't have even been democratic. "Democratic" also doesn't imply "direct democracy," much less whether electors are chosen by popular vote or the (democratically elected) state legislature. American Presidential elections have always been indirect. So I don't see a problem with choosing 1789 as the first democratic election, even though enfranchisement has seen many improvements.

[Hatman 🍁]

Still waiting

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

1824, because it was the first with PV, and Jackson, the first president that could be called a "man of the people", had his rightful victory stolen by another rich guy.

By the way, could you give a reason behind the other poll options?

[Mr. Smith]

By the most liberal definition of democracy, 1924 when Native Americans joined women, the other minorities, and non property owning men in the right to vote.

[The Mikado]

"Democratic" doesn't imply "complete enfranchisement," otherwise Athenian democracy wouldn't have even been democratic. "Democratic" also doesn't imply "direct democracy," much less whether electors are chosen by popular vote or the (democratically elected) state legislature. American Presidential elections have always been indirect. So I don't see a problem with choosing 1789 as the first democratic election, even though enfranchisement has seen many improvements.

I don't accept Athenian democracy as democratic so much as a very broad oligarchy. Even universal manhood suffrage is oligarchic rather than democratic as the majority of the population, women, couldn't vote.

[The Dowager Mod]

NOTA, until the electoral college is abolished.
Jackson, Tilden, Cleveland and Gore would like a word.

[sparkey]

I don't accept Athenian democracy as democratic so much as a very broad oligarchy. Even universal manhood suffrage is oligarchic rather than democratic as the majority of the population, women, couldn't vote.

It's always odd to me when people say that a word doesn't apply to the very thing it was invented to describe.

[Orser67]

It's always odd to me when people say that a word doesn't apply to the very thing it was invented to describe.

Meh, the meaning of words can change over time. Just look at the word "liberal."

Anyway I voted 1920, though I could see 1968 or somewhere in the 1820s/1830s (after the removal of property reqs for enfranchisement).

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

1824, because it was the first with PV, and Jackson, the first president that could be called a "man of the people", had his rightful victory stolen by another rich guy.

By the way, could you give a reason behind the other poll options?

American presidential elections had popular vote going back to 1789, and in both 1789 and 1824, there were some states whose electors were determined popularly, and some where they were determined by the state senate or some other method. Merely because the Atlas doesn't show popular vote shades for pre-1824 elections doesn't mean they don't exist.

[The Mikado]

I don't accept Athenian democracy as democratic so much as a very broad oligarchy. Even universal manhood suffrage is oligarchic rather than democratic as the majority of the population, women, couldn't vote.

It's always odd to me when people say that a word doesn't apply to the very thing it was invented to describe.

Mussolini coined the word totalitarian to describe his regime, with the expression "all within the state, nothing without the state, nothing against the state." Mussolini's Italy completely failed to match his criteria and the word totalitarian is still quite popular yet is seldom used to describe his regime.

For democracy I lean towards Rousseau's phrasing that a society in which fewer than half the people have a say is an oligarchy and more than half have a say is a democracy, and women are more than half the population, so...

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

1968.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

1828.  Except for South Carolina which held out until Reconstruction every state was using some form of the popular vote that year and stuck with it.  (Save for 1876 in Colorado which was equal parts very recent statehood and Republican shenanigans that year.)

[Hatman 🍁]

Overwhelmingly White male forum strikes again!

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Why 1800? I think 1804 is more relevant. By 1804 a majority of electors in the nation were chosen by popular vote, up from just a few states in 1800.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Should be self-explanatory. I think there's a strong case for 1920 outside of the South and 1968 inside Dixie. (Those 98% Democratic returns in South Carolina don't exactly inspire confidence even without widespread voter suppression).

1972 is for those of you that feel that 18 voting age is critical to the democratic label, I don't.

1920

[Mr. Smith]

Should be self-explanatory. I think there's a strong case for 1920 outside of the South and 1968 inside Dixie. (Those 98% Democratic returns in South Carolina don't exactly inspire confidence even without widespread voter suppression).

1972 is for those of you that feel that 18 voting age is critical to the democratic label, I don't.

1920

1920 didn't allow Native Americans the right to vote.

1924 did.

[compson III]

How do the Federalists relinquish power in 1800 if the country is not "democratic" by then?

[Beet]

Sometime between 1789 and the mid-1840s.

[The Mikado]

How do the Federalists relinquish power in 1800 if the country is not "democratic" by then?

The Federalists lose because South+Middle outweighs North. I don't see what that has to do with whether the government is popularly elected or not.

[politicus]

Overwhelmingly White male forum strikes again!

Male is more important than White. 1968 is far more popular than 1920.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

How do the Federalists relinquish power in 1800 if the country is not "democratic" by then?

The Federalists lose because South+Middle outweighs North. I don't see what that has to do with whether the government is popularly elected or not.

The degree to which the Federalist/Republican split was section gets overemphasized.  There were still Federalists being elected to Congress from the South and Middle right up to when the Federalist Party was swallowed up by the tumult in the Republican Party over Jackson.

[compson III]

How do the Federalists relinquish power in 1800 if the country is not "democratic" by then?

The Federalists lose because South+Middle outweighs North. I don't see what that has to do with whether the government is popularly elected or not.

Even if you argue that the South and New England were undemocratic (going along with the interests of the planter and merchant class, respectively), which is of course ridiculous, clearly the Middle voted Republican only because it was democratic.  New York was Republican precisely because Burr built a democratic coalition there.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

How do the Federalists relinquish power in 1800 if the country is not "democratic" by then?

The Federalists lose because South+Middle outweighs North. I don't see what that has to do with whether the government is popularly elected or not.

Even if you argue that the South and New England were undemocratic (going along with the interests of the planter and merchant class, respectively), which is of course ridiculous, clearly the Middle voted Republican only because it was democratic.  New York was Republican precisely because Burr built a democratic coalition there.

If we are talking about presidential elections, then New York was one of the last states to move to the popular vote. On the other hand, the legislature that selected the presidential electors was democratically elected, so the franchise is probably the more relevant factor in determining whether an election is democratic. But even there, New York didn't completely abolish property/tax qualifications for the white vote until 1821.

The two don't always go together. RI was one of the first to move to the popular vote in the selection of presidential electors - as early as 1800 - but still retained some property qualifications in the early 20th century when the South was reinstituting them.

[TNF]

We've never really had one, given the amount of people that have been disenfranchised at one point or another (especially today, with mass incarceration effectively disenfranchising most of the poor), plus we have an electoral college that effectively quashes any notion of real democracy.

If we want a truly democratic election, we have to (1) abolish the electoral college; (2) get rid of archaic ballot access laws that ensure the Democratic-Republican duopoly; (3) restore voting rights to the disenfranchised, especially felons and those in prison; (4) end residency requirements on voting, voter registration, and extend the vote to all persons who work. There's no legitimate reason not to have the vote at 16, given that plenty of 16 year olds work and have their labor taxed as part of that process, which you might remember we fought a revolution over back in the day. No taxation without representation and all that jazz.