Can someone from American Samoa run for President?
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  Can someone from American Samoa run for President?
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Author Topic: Can someone from American Samoa run for President?  (Read 74982 times)
Vega
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« on: February 22, 2015, 10:10:21 AM »

Says it in the title.

Can someone from American Samoa run for President? I ask because they're "American Nationals", and not citizens (which enable people from the territories to run).
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2015, 11:36:36 AM »

Says it in the title.

Can someone from American Samoa run for President? I ask because they're "American Nationals", and not citizens (which enable people from the territories to run).

IIRC being "American Nationals" enables American Samoans to gain a citizenship and live in the U.S. without restriction, but unless you're a natural born citizen, no.

Btw, while natural born citizens of other U.S. citizens are, without a doubt, natural born citizens, does living in an unincorporated territory satisfy residency requirements?
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solarstorm
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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2015, 06:06:21 PM »

Says it in the title.

Can someone from American Samoa run for President? I ask because they're "American Nationals", and not citizens (which enable people from the territories to run).

IIRC being "American Nationals" enables American Samoans to gain a citizenship and live in the U.S. without restriction, but unless you're a natural born citizen, no.

Btw, while natural born citizens of other U.S. citizens are, without a doubt, natural born citizens, does living in an unincorporated territory satisfy residency requirements?

McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone (which, however, isn't the same thing as "living in").

Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer says in respect of Puerto Ricans:
"Lawyers always ask two questions: first, why?
Isn't Puerto Rico an important part of this country? Answer: yes.
Second question: why not? When I ask why not, I don't hear any answer."


Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/can-a-puerto-rican-be-president-justice-breyer-speculates/

But the question is: Is American Samoa also an important part of the USA?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2015, 10:48:52 PM »

The idea that "natural born citizen" requires that one be born in the US is a false claim of the birther crowd.  All it requires is that one be a US citizen from the moment of birth.  By the constitution, all people born in the US of parents subject to US law are automatically US citizens, but Congress can and has extended that birthright principle beyond that.  Under current law, any child who has at least one parent who is a US citizen is a essentially a natural-born citizen, even if no congressional law has used the phrase since the 1795 when the Naturalization Act of 1795 superseded the Naturalization Act of 1790 which did use the phrase by saying "the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens".

A fair number of American Samoans have US citizenship, so any children of theirs born in American Samoa or elsewhere would be natural born citizens.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2015, 12:19:21 PM »

McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone (which, however, isn't the same thing as "living in").

Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer says in respect of Puerto Ricans:
"Lawyers always ask two questions: first, why?
Isn't Puerto Rico an important part of this country? Answer: yes.
Second question: why not? When I ask why not, I don't hear any answer."


Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/can-a-puerto-rican-be-president-justice-breyer-speculates/

But the question is: Is American Samoa also an important part of the USA?

I am perfectly aware of that. I was asking whether living in an unincorporated territory counts as residency requirement, since I've heard conflicting opinions.

For example, a native of Puerto Rico is, without a doubt, a natural born U.S. citizen, but does living outside an incorporated U.S. counts as residency under U.S. Constitution?

A fair number of American Samoans have US citizenship, so any children of theirs born in American Samoa or elsewhere would be natural born citizens.

Yeah, but someone born as "U.S. national" in Samoa, as opposed to citizen, obviously cannot run for President.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2015, 08:30:12 PM »

It's doubtful that even without the fourteen year residency requirement that someone from an unincorporated territory would have the national connections needed to make a successful run for the Presidency without having spent the requisite fourteen years in incorporated territory.
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Vega
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2015, 08:45:19 PM »

It's doubtful that even without the fourteen year residency requirement that someone from an unincorporated territory would have the national connections needed to make a successful run for the Presidency without having spent the requisite fourteen years in incorporated territory.

There is no doubt about that. It was more of a technical question.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2015, 10:52:21 PM »

It's doubtful that even without the fourteen year residency requirement that someone from an unincorporated territory would have the national connections needed to make a successful run for the Presidency without having spent the requisite fourteen years in incorporated territory.

There is no doubt about that. It was more of a technical question.

It's one of those technical details that doesn't have an explicit answer, largely because no one sees the need for one.
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Vega
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2015, 07:49:50 AM »

It's doubtful that even without the fourteen year residency requirement that someone from an unincorporated territory would have the national connections needed to make a successful run for the Presidency without having spent the requisite fourteen years in incorporated territory.

There is no doubt about that. It was more of a technical question.

It's one of those technical details that doesn't have an explicit answer, largely because no one sees the need for one.

Well right.

Though, if Tulsi Gabbard runs than we could have our first American Samoan President (that's born there).
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Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2015, 02:19:13 AM »

No because they aren't citizens.

People from the other territories must also not live in the territories. There's the 14 years living in the states law too.
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Ebsy
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2015, 02:20:33 AM »

People born in American Samoa are inexplicable not given US citizenship, but are classified as US Nationals.
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Vega
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2015, 08:49:36 AM »

But, what if, they got American citizenship later (like Tulsi Gabbard)? Would they be considered naturalized and thus ineligible for the Presidency?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2015, 11:30:17 AM »

But, what if, they got American citizenship later (like Tulsi Gabbard)? Would they be considered naturalized and thus ineligible for the Presidency?

Actually, I think Tulsi had citizenship from birth via her mother (and maybe her father as well) despite being born in American Samoa.  But yeah, anyone born a national and not a citizen would not be eligible to the presidency.
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The_Doctor
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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2015, 11:06:29 PM »

The "natural born" clause means that if they were born on U.S. owned soil, they're eligible for the Presidency. Any territory that is American controlled at the time of that person's birth would make said person eligible in terms of the "natural born" clause.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2015, 12:56:28 AM »

The "natural born" clause means that if they were born on U.S. owned soil, they're eligible for the Presidency. Any territory that is American controlled at the time of that person's birth would make said person eligible in terms of the "natural born" clause.
Citation needed.  This isn't how the Naturalization Act of 1790 defined "natural born".  In any case, the concept of unincorporated territory wasn't around at the time unless one includes "Indians not taxed".
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pbrower2a
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2015, 08:07:06 PM »

The "natural born" clause means that if they were born on U.S. owned soil, they're eligible for the Presidency. Any territory that is American controlled at the time of that person's birth would make said person eligible in terms of the "natural born" clause.

"Natural-born citizen" includes an American born to citizen parents who recognize the child as theirs. One citizen parent would be adequate (thus even if Barack Obama had been born in Kenya he would be eligible for the Presidency). 
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2015, 03:28:04 AM »

The "natural born" clause means that if they were born on U.S. owned soil, they're eligible for the Presidency. Any territory that is American controlled at the time of that person's birth would make said person eligible in terms of the "natural born" clause.

"Natural-born citizen" includes an American born to citizen parents who recognize the child as theirs. One citizen parent would be adequate (thus even if Barack Obama had been born in Kenya he would be eligible for the Presidency). 

Citation needed.  This isn't how the Naturalization Act of 1790 defined "natural born".

It used the fairly basic definition of "natural born" equals "citizen since birth".  If Obama's parents had been living in Kenya when he was born, then he would not have been a natural born citizen, as children born abroad with only one citizen parent only get automatic citizenship if they come to live in the US while they are still minors, but that citizenship is not retroactive to birth.
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jfern
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2015, 03:34:57 AM »

The "natural born" clause means that if they were born on U.S. owned soil, they're eligible for the Presidency. Any territory that is American controlled at the time of that person's birth would make said person eligible in terms of the "natural born" clause.

"Natural-born citizen" includes an American born to citizen parents who recognize the child as theirs. One citizen parent would be adequate (thus even if Barack Obama had been born in Kenya he would be eligible for the Presidency). 

Citation needed.  This isn't how the Naturalization Act of 1790 defined "natural born".

It used the fairly basic definition of "natural born" equals "citizen since birth".  If Obama's parents had been living in Kenya when he was born, then he would not have been a natural born citizen, as children born abroad with only one citizen parent only get automatic citizenship if they come to live in the US while they are still minors, but that citizenship is not retroactive to birth.

Are you saying Ted Cruz is ineligible?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2015, 05:55:51 AM »

The "natural born" clause means that if they were born on U.S. owned soil, they're eligible for the Presidency. Any territory that is American controlled at the time of that person's birth would make said person eligible in terms of the "natural born" clause.

"Natural-born citizen" includes an American born to citizen parents who recognize the child as theirs. One citizen parent would be adequate (thus even if Barack Obama had been born in Kenya he would be eligible for the Presidency). 

Citation needed.  This isn't how the Naturalization Act of 1790 defined "natural born".

It used the fairly basic definition of "natural born" equals "citizen since birth".  If Obama's parents had been living in Kenya when he was born, then he would not have been a natural born citizen, as children born abroad with only one citizen parent only get automatic citizenship if they come to live in the US while they are still minors, but that citizenship is not retroactive to birth.

Are you saying Ted Cruz is ineligible?
Actually, no.  He would have been ineligible had his mother been as young as Obama's. One citizen parent suffices provided they lived long enough in the US as an adult.
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Thomas D
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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2015, 01:45:40 PM »

Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona when it wasn't a state. He ran in 1964 and would have won if millions and millions of people had voted differently.  Wouldn't it be the same thing?
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2015, 02:31:47 PM »

Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona when it wasn't a state. He ran in 1964 and would have won if millions and millions of people had voted differently.  Wouldn't it be the same thing?

Well Goldwater probably inherited birthright citizenship from his two American citizen parents, but even if he didn't the real difference there would be that anyone born in the Arizona territory was a U.S. citizen at birth according to federal law. This is true today of Puerto Rico, Guam, etc. American Samoa, however, is an unincorporated territory, so being born there does not automatically confer citizenship.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2015, 03:40:27 PM »

Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona when it wasn't a state. He ran in 1964 and would have won if millions and millions of people had voted differently.  Wouldn't it be the same thing?

Well Goldwater probably inherited birthright citizenship from his two American citizen parents, but even if he didn't the real difference there would be that anyone born in the Arizona territory was a U.S. citizen at birth according to federal law. This is true today of Puerto Rico, Guam, etc. American Samoa, however, is an unincorporated territory, so being born there does not automatically confer citizenship.

All US territories with the exception of DC and Palmyra Island are unincorporated.  American Samoa's distinction is that it is the only inhabited unorganized territory of the US. However, in the case of the organized territories, that's not the reason the law grants citizenship at birth. Puerto Rico and the Philippines quickly became organized territories after the Spanish American War, but it was only later that Puerto Ricans gained birthright citizenship.  The current situation with American Samoa is largely because of what the local leadership desires. If there were any agitation for birthright citizenship or a change from unorganized to organized, I can't see Washington objecting, regardless of which party were in charge at the time.
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Oak Hills
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« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2015, 06:01:56 PM »

Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona when it wasn't a state. He ran in 1964 and would have won if millions and millions of people had voted differently.  Wouldn't it be the same thing?

Well Goldwater probably inherited birthright citizenship from his two American citizen parents, but even if he didn't the real difference there would be that anyone born in the Arizona territory was a U.S. citizen at birth according to federal law. This is true today of Puerto Rico, Guam, etc. American Samoa, however, is an unincorporated territory, so being born there does not automatically confer citizenship.

All US territories with the exception of DC and Palmyra Island are unincorporated.  American Samoa's distinction is that it is the only inhabited unorganized territory of the US. However, in the case of the organized territories, that's not the reason the law grants citizenship at birth. Puerto Rico and the Philippines quickly became organized territories after the Spanish American War, but it was only later that Puerto Ricans gained birthright citizenship.  The current situation with American Samoa is largely because of what the local leadership desires. If there were any agitation for birthright citizenship or a change from unorganized to organized, I can't see Washington objecting, regardless of which party were in charge at the time.

So why doesn't the local leadership want American Samoans to have birthright citizenship?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2015, 11:06:48 PM »

Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona when it wasn't a state. He ran in 1964 and would have won if millions and millions of people had voted differently.  Wouldn't it be the same thing?

Well Goldwater probably inherited birthright citizenship from his two American citizen parents, but even if he didn't the real difference there would be that anyone born in the Arizona territory was a U.S. citizen at birth according to federal law. This is true today of Puerto Rico, Guam, etc. American Samoa, however, is an unincorporated territory, so being born there does not automatically confer citizenship.

All US territories with the exception of DC and Palmyra Island are unincorporated.  American Samoa's distinction is that it is the only inhabited unorganized territory of the US. However, in the case of the organized territories, that's not the reason the law grants citizenship at birth. Puerto Rico and the Philippines quickly became organized territories after the Spanish American War, but it was only later that Puerto Ricans gained birthright citizenship.  The current situation with American Samoa is largely because of what the local leadership desires. If there were any agitation for birthright citizenship or a change from unorganized to organized, I can't see Washington objecting, regardless of which party were in charge at the time.

So why doesn't the local leadership want American Samoans to have birthright citizenship?
They fear the locals will start thinking of themselves as Americans first and Samoans second instead of the other way round as they do now and thus start questing the current situation that has the traditional leadership in charge.

They also fear that Congress will start applying laws to American Samoa without caring about the utility or impact of those laws to a distant outpost separated from the rest of the US by considerable distance and timezones if they were drawn in closer.  Not that it doesn't happen anyway.  A few years ago Congress practically killed the tuna canneries that were the major employers there by insisting upon the mainland minimum wage be applied to American Samoa.  One closed and the other decided to replace some of its labor with capital.
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jfern
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« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2015, 12:04:53 AM »

Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona when it wasn't a state. He ran in 1964 and would have won if millions and millions of people had voted differently.  Wouldn't it be the same thing?

It was an incorporated area of the United States, so he had full citizenship at birth, regardless of his parent's status. The thing is none of the territories today are incorporated, except for Palmyra.
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