War of 1812: Win, Loss, or Draw for America?
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  War of 1812: Win, Loss, or Draw for America?
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Poll
Question: Well
#1
American Win
 
#2
Draw
 
#3
American Loss
 
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Total Voters: 55

Author Topic: War of 1812: Win, Loss, or Draw for America?  (Read 6467 times)
Badger
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« on: February 24, 2015, 01:33:55 AM »

I vote Draw, fwiw, based on the return to antibellum status in the Treaty of Ghent and rather mixed bag of military successes (and failures) on both sides.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2015, 10:18:15 AM »

A loss for the simple reason that we got both The Star Spangled Banner and Andrew Jackson as a result of it.
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Incipimus iterum
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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2015, 11:15:37 AM »

Basically a Status quo ante bellum.
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Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2015, 10:16:08 PM »

A win for the simple reason that we got both The Star Spangled Banner and Andrew Jackson as a result of it.

Fixed.

But seriously, I voted draw.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2015, 10:29:47 PM »

     We started a war and got our capital sacked. I know that not much changed from the status quo, but it's hard for me to call that anything other than a loss.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2015, 12:51:35 AM »

A win for the simple reason that we got both The Star Spangled Banner and Andrew Jackson as a result of it.

Fixed.

But seriously, I voted draw.

Obviously you are tone deaf.  To be fair Francis Scott Key didn't pair up his poem with that tune, and that tune isn't bad for a singer trying to show their chops, but it's horrible for an anthem intended to be widely sung.
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H. Ross Peron
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2015, 01:09:04 AM »

Technically a draw, but it was probably the best case scenario for the United States.
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KingSweden
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2015, 09:41:00 AM »

A win for the simple reason that we got both The Star Spangled Banner and Andrew Jackson as a result of it.

Fixed.

But seriously, I voted draw.

Obviously you are tone deaf.  To be fair Francis Scott Key didn't pair up his poem with that tune, and that tune isn't bad for a singer trying to show their chops, but it's horrible for an anthem intended to be widely sung.

I personally think America the Beautiful would make a much better national anthem.
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Hatman 🍁
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2015, 10:25:59 AM »

We've been taught since childhood that we kicked your butts, but Wikipedia says it was a draw.
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sparkey
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2015, 11:35:17 AM »

We've been taught since childhood that we kicked your butts, but Wikipedia says it was a draw.

Canada did kick our butts. The invasion of Canada went terribly for the United States, and Canadians were a major part of that. But there were two other major opponents to the USA in the war: Britain, who won some, lost some, and agreed to peace without a change in territory; and Tecumseh's Confederacy, who basically lost to the USA.
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shua
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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2015, 09:42:14 PM »

America stopped having sailors impressed for foreign navies, so that's a plus.
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Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2015, 09:56:28 PM »

A win for the simple reason that we got both The Star Spangled Banner and Andrew Jackson as a result of it.

Fixed.

But seriously, I voted draw.

Obviously you are tone deaf.  To be fair Francis Scott Key didn't pair up his poem with that tune, and that tune isn't bad for a singer trying to show their chops, but it's horrible for an anthem intended to be widely sung.

Well, do you want Yankee Doodle to be the national anthem instead?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2015, 10:12:08 PM »

America stopped having sailors impressed for foreign navies, so that's a plus.

That was more because with the Napoleonic Wars at an end, the Royal Navy no longer needed to impress sailors to fill the ranks.
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shua
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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2015, 10:41:19 PM »

America stopped having sailors impressed for foreign navies, so that's a plus.

That was more because with the Napoleonic Wars at an end, the Royal Navy no longer needed to impress sailors to fill the ranks.

still, the Brits never tried that one again though, did they?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2015, 11:21:12 PM »

America stopped having sailors impressed for foreign navies, so that's a plus.

That was more because with the Napoleonic Wars at an end, the Royal Navy no longer needed to impress sailors to fill the ranks.

still, the Brits never tried that one again though, did they?

They never had the need again.  By the time their next major naval war was fought, their limiting factor in naval war was capital, not labor.
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Badger
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« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2015, 12:38:11 AM »

     We started a war and got our capital sacked. I know that not much changed from the status quo, but it's hard for me to call that anything other than a loss.

So? Unlike most European wars where the capture of a capital was usually the last ditch battle of the losing army, the capture of Washington was merely a raid where the British relinquished control of the city within 24 hours. Sure it was a humiliating defeat of a single battle (or rather the Battle of Bladensburg), but it meant little strategically for the overall war or the ultimate Treaty of Ghent.

Besides, does that mean America similarly raiding and burning Canada's capital (York, nka Toronto) mean Canada lost the war?
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Badger
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« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2015, 12:47:27 AM »

We've been taught since childhood that we kicked your butts, but Wikipedia says it was a draw.

Canada did kick our butts. The invasion of Canada went terribly for the United States, and Canadians were a major part of that. But there were two other major opponents to the USA in the war: Britain, who won some, lost some, and agreed to peace without a change in territory; and Tecumseh's Confederacy, who basically lost to the USA.

@ Hatman: that's adorable, but there wasn't any 'we' Canadians at the time, only loyal servants of the British Crown. Tongue

@ you & Sparkey: the Canadian border was more of a stalemate than anything. Yes, there were failed American invasions, but the British invasion was thwarted by defeat on Lake Champlain, and the were American victories along the front which weren't followed up for strategic gains, not to mention that burning of York (strategically meaningless as it was).
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Hatman 🍁
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« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2015, 07:40:09 AM »

We've been taught since childhood that we kicked your butts, but Wikipedia says it was a draw.

Canada did kick our butts. The invasion of Canada went terribly for the United States, and Canadians were a major part of that. But there were two other major opponents to the USA in the war: Britain, who won some, lost some, and agreed to peace without a change in territory; and Tecumseh's Confederacy, who basically lost to the USA.

@ Hatman: that's adorable, but there wasn't any 'we' Canadians at the time, only loyal servants of the British Crown. Tongue



Obviously, but the way it's talked about in historical revisionism makes it very much part of our heritage.  The War of 1812 is looked back fondly as one of the proudest moments in our history.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2015, 12:03:37 AM »

In terms of territorial gain, it was obviously a draw. The U.S. didn't get Canada; Britain didn't get their Indian Republic in the West. Essentially, it preserved the status quo.

If we're talking about national morale, however, it was quite clearly a victory for the US. Like the Mexican War and the Spanish-American War, the real effect of the War of 1812 was to foster patriotic feeling at home. Regardless of whether they actually won, Americans thought they won, and that sense of victory fueled one of the great nationalist periods of American History. It's no coincidence that the War of 1812 was directly followed by the Era of Good Feeling.

(NOTE: I don't know a lot about how Brits/ Canadians felt about the war, so it's possible that you could call this a win/win conflict in terms of national morale.)
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2015, 12:15:28 AM »

Can someone please explain to me the 'win' argument?
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Boston Bread
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« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2015, 12:47:58 AM »

As a Canadian, I am required by tradition to pick the third option.

But of course I can look about it an opposing perspective too.

Can someone please explain to me the 'win' argument?
The issues which lead to the declaration of war, like impressment, and native resistance to American settlement (who the Brits assisted until after the war), were for the most part resolved. The peace treaty can be argued to have a net benefit for the States, by ending British meddling in the west and on the seas, while reducing the potential for boundary disputes.
Americans also like to see themselves as the underdogs in the war, fighting against the greatest empire of the time, the inverse of the Canadian view which is that "Canada" (British North America) was the underdog defending itself against the States with much smaller manpower. When the underdog draws the war from a gain-loss perspective, it is often seen as a "victory" for the underdog as a draw can in itself be seen as an accomplishment, which to be honest, underlies the common "Canada won" argument in Canada.
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Hatman 🍁
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« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2015, 10:08:58 AM »

In terms of territorial gain, it was obviously a draw. The U.S. didn't get Canada; Britain didn't get their Indian Republic in the West. Essentially, it preserved the status quo.

If we're talking about national morale, however, it was quite clearly a victory for the US. Like the Mexican War and the Spanish-American War, the real effect of the War of 1812 was to foster patriotic feeling at home. Regardless of whether they actually won, Americans thought they won, and that sense of victory fueled one of the great nationalist periods of American History. It's no coincidence that the War of 1812 was directly followed by the Era of Good Feeling.

(NOTE: I don't know a lot about how Brits/ Canadians felt about the war, so it's possible that you could call this a win/win conflict in terms of national morale.)

That's interesting, because under that definition the British/Canadians could be considered winners as well. We take great pride in the fact that we burned down the White House, for example. As I said, we are taught in school that the British/Canada won the war.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2015, 08:01:44 PM »

Can someone please explain to me the 'win' argument?

Is Canada not part of the United States to this very day?
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2015, 08:03:13 PM »

obligatory
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Clarko95 📚💰📈
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« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2015, 06:51:38 PM »

Can someone please explain to me the 'win' argument?

Because America
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