A question about the opponents of gay marriage

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

I must oppose it, no matter whether I want to or not, or I am going directly against the word of god, which I am always striving to avoid.

If you see married same sex couples, some who have been together for years, decades even and they are caring for each other, supporting each other, nursing each other through illness and death, do you see in that 'sinful acts'?

When my husband was in hospital and I held his hand as he went under general anaesthetic and he came out of it, do you think that was a sinful act? When I changed his bandages and washed his scars was that a sinful act? I did these things because I love him more than I've ever known how to love. Was it the result of 'sinful' lust?

Gay Marriage is a sinful act. Now, caring for someone else is fine, and spousal hospital visitation rights are something  I'd be willing to allow under a civil union.

Homosexuals should be able to resist the urge to enter a full fledged marriage. I don't consider being/acting homosexual, or entering into a civil union that has clear differences from a marriage,  a sin. Caring for homos is not a sin, and I don't support conversion therapy or discrimination against homosexuals in education, employment, or provision of non-wedding-related services.

But once you enter into a full fledged gay marriage, or a gay civil union that is indistinguishable from a gay marriage, you are sinning and should be ashamed.

is having gay sex a sin?

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Gay marriage is saying you are proud of sin. Entering into a lesser relationship indicates you have some degree of shame and can therefore be tolerated by society. But once you enter a gay marriage, you have no shame for your sin, and worse, are directly telling society that sin is o.k.

Gay sex is not a good thing, but it is a far lesser and much more tolerable sin than that of gay marriage.

[King]

Reminder that economists consider people like Wulfric to be "rational actors."

[bedstuy]

Gay marriage is saying you are proud of sin. Entering into a lesser relationship indicates you have some degree of shame and can therefore be tolerated by society. But once you enter a gay marriage, you have no shame for your sin, and worse, are directly telling society that sin is o.k.

Gay sex is not a good thing, but it is a far lesser and much more tolerable sin than that of gay marriage.

What your religion says is irrelevant to public policy.  We don't live in a Christian theocracy.  You can't just say that gay sex or pork or dancing is haram and thus needs to be illegal or disfavored by the government.  You need to have a rational basis for legislation.  You need to have a reason why gay sex or gay marriage is in some way harmful.  And, you don't, so shut your pie hole.

[afleitch]

I am not a Christian. I do not feel 'shame' over an integral part of my being. That's just silly. Please give a valid reason why your definition of sin should exclude me from marrying?

[JerryArkansas]

So, what I am, what Wolverine is, what Clark is, what many of the people in the forum are is shameful.  Have you no sense of decency sir.   The argument you right now are using is the same one that opponents of interracial marriage used in the 1960's.  It is sicking and people like you who use a book which is well written for you prejudices are what is wrong with our country today.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

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[7,052,770]

Wulfric, the Bible is against divorced people remarrying. Why don't you feel equally strongly that remarriage should be illegal? Do you see an inconsistency here?

[afleitch]

That's not answering the question. I am married under New York law. On what qualification should that marriage be rescinded?

[TDAS04]

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Do consider it a sin to worship Buddha statues?  Would you vote to make that illegal?  What about Jews not believing that Jesus is the Messiah?  Should you outlaw the practice of Judaism?

[RFayette]

Here's what I think people are missing.  Wulfric believes that supporting gay marriage will make him go to hell.  Thus, he feels supporting gay marriage is like being an accomplice to sin, so he won't support it.

The problem isn't the position in the context of his religion, which is actually somewhat logical (though the "lesser shame" thing seems like a silly moderate hero stance); the problem is the style of religion (fundamentalist Christianity) itself.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Opponent of SSM:  "Allowing the gay couple next door to get married violates my religious freedom."

Observant Jew:  "Allowing my neighbor to eat shrimp with cheese violates my religious freedom."

Observant Catholic:  "Don't allow my neighbor to eat steak on Friday.  It's against my religion."

All three arguments are equally idiotic.

One distinction is that unlike the preparation of food, we have traditionally allowed persons performing a religious marriage to simultaneously perform a civil marriage, thereby conflating the two in the minds of many.  Hence redefining civil marriage is seen by some as redefining religious marriage.  It really isn't, but perhaps the distinction could be made clearer by separating civil and religious marriage so that one person does not perform both roles.

[King]

Wulfric, what is opinion of the right of the Episcopal Church of New York to marry same-sex couples? Should they have their religious freedom stripped because a majority of Christian denominations disagree?

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Wulfric, what is opinion of the right of the Episcopal Church of New York to marry same-sex couples? Should they have their religious freedom stripped because a majority of Christian denominations disagree?

That church does not practice Christianity in the best methods, true. But god would not want us shutting down an attempt at worship, no matter how futile. Hopefully through thought and prayer, that church will realize the error of its ways and stop performing same sex marriages.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I must oppose it, no matter whether I want to or not, or I am going directly against the word of god, which I am always striving to avoid.

If you see married same sex couples, some who have been together for years, decades even and they are caring for each other, supporting each other, nursing each other through illness and death, do you see in that 'sinful acts'?

When my husband was in hospital and I held his hand as he went under general anaesthetic and he came out of it, do you think that was a sinful act? When I changed his bandages and washed his scars was that a sinful act? I did these things because I love him more than I've ever known how to love. Was it the result of 'sinful' lust?

Gay Marriage is a sinful act. Now, caring for someone else is fine, and spousal hospital visitation rights are something  I'd be willing to allow under a civil union.

Homosexuals should be able to resist the urge to enter a full fledged marriage. I don't consider being/acting homosexual, or entering into a civil union that has clear differences from a marriage,  a sin. Caring for homos is not a sin, and I don't support conversion therapy or discrimination against homosexuals in education, employment, or provision of non-wedding-related services.

But once you enter into a full fledged gay marriage, or a gay civil union that is indistinguishable from a gay marriage, you are sinning and should be ashamed.

There's not enough moderation in your post.  Only 55% of gay marriages are sinful.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

I must oppose it, no matter whether I want to or not, or I am going directly against the word of god, which I am always striving to avoid.

If you see married same sex couples, some who have been together for years, decades even and they are caring for each other, supporting each other, nursing each other through illness and death, do you see in that 'sinful acts'?

When my husband was in hospital and I held his hand as he went under general anaesthetic and he came out of it, do you think that was a sinful act? When I changed his bandages and washed his scars was that a sinful act? I did these things because I love him more than I've ever known how to love. Was it the result of 'sinful' lust?

Gay Marriage is a sinful act. Now, caring for someone else is fine, and spousal hospital visitation rights are something  I'd be willing to allow under a civil union.

Homosexuals should be able to resist the urge to enter a full fledged marriage. I don't consider being/acting homosexual, or entering into a civil union that has clear differences from a marriage,  a sin. Caring for homos is not a sin, and I don't support conversion therapy or discrimination against homosexuals in education, employment, or provision of non-wedding-related services.

But once you enter into a full fledged gay marriage, or a gay civil union that is indistinguishable from a gay marriage, you are sinning and should be ashamed.

There's not enough moderation in your post.  Only 55% of gay marriages are sinful.

As I've stated, that ratio is something SWE came up with, and I don't endorse it or strive to follow it. I do value compromise, and my views range throughout the political spectrum if you go issue by issue. But to say I take every single issue and immediately head to the most moderate position I can think of is just silly. I simply take whatever position makes the most sense to me, regardless of that position's perceived place on the political spectrum or the party label behind a given endorser of that position.

This is one of the big reasons I'll never join either political party - it gives me the freedom to take the positions I want to take on the issues. If you join a political party, you feel some sense of loyalty to them and you'll eventually find yourself, at least on occasion, voting for candidates or supporting positions based solely on party loyalty or (if you hold political office) fear of punishment by other members of the party. By remaining independent, I can freely change my positions based on what I feel is best for society, without feeling guilty for going against my party or, if I ever hold political office, risking punishment from other members of the party.

By punishment, I mean primary challenges, removal from congressional committees, etc.

[Flake]

[Antonio the Sixth]

Wulfric is set to become one of our greatest sources of comedy.

[The Mikado]

Opponent of SSM:  "Allowing the gay couple next door to get married violates my religious freedom."

Observant Jew:  "Allowing my neighbor to eat shrimp with cheese violates my religious freedom."

Observant Catholic:  "Don't allow my neighbor to eat steak on Friday.  It's against my religion."

All three arguments are equally idiotic.

Even the most radical ultra-Orthodox Jew wouldn't be interested in forcing a Gentile neighbor to follow Jewish dietary law. The whole premise of those laws is that they're part of a covenant God made with the Israelites, and your radical Haredim are happy thinking that the goyim are outside of that covenant.

They'd happily try to force a secular Jew to get back on the kosher bandwagon, though!

People keep analgizing Christianity's and Islam's universalism to religions that are strictly opposed to it. This idea that Orthodox Jews' reaction to Gentiles trying to keep Kosher would be anything other than territorial hostility ("My covenant! Go get your own!") Is mind-boggling.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Wulfric is set to become one of our greatest sources of comedy.

While I think English is not your first language, I had thought you were fluent enough to know the meaning of "comedy".

[Reaganfan]

The mistake liberals are making in this thread is assuming everyone opposed to same-sex marriage is a bible thumping Christian.

I can tell you first hand that the people who I know who don't support same sex marriage are people who are not overly-religious. Not anti-religious, but the types who only go to church for weddings and funerals. In fact, not all of them would be properly described as conservatives. Some are union blue collar men types who hate George W. Bush but roll their eyes at things like same-sex marriage.

Don't assume they're all Mike Huckabee.

[TDAS04]

Opponent of SSM:  "Allowing the gay couple next door to get married violates my religious freedom."

Observant Jew:  "Allowing my neighbor to eat shrimp with cheese violates my religious freedom."

Observant Catholic:  "Don't allow my neighbor to eat steak on Friday.  It's against my religion."

All three arguments are equally idiotic.

Even the most radical ultra-Orthodox Jew wouldn't be interested in forcing a Gentile neighbor to follow Jewish dietary law. The whole premise of those laws is that they're part of a covenant God made with the Israelites, and your radical Haredim are happy thinking that the goyim are outside of that covenant.

They'd happily try to force a secular Jew to get back on the kosher bandwagon, though!

People keep analgizing Christianity's and Islam's universalism to religions that are strictly opposed to it. This idea that Orthodox Jews' reaction to Gentiles trying to keep Kosher would be anything other than territorial hostility ("My covenant! Go get your own!") Is mind-boggling.

Fair enough, but I stand my point that imposing your opposition to homosexuality on your fellow citizens is as absurd as Catholics imposing their beliefs regarding meat on Fridays on others.  Neither has a place in a free, secular society.

The mistake liberals are making in this thread is assuming everyone opposed to same-sex marriage is a bible thumping Christian.

I can tell you first hand that the people who I know who don't support same sex marriage are people who are not overly-religious. Not anti-religious, but the types who only go to church for weddings and funerals. In fact, not all of them would be properly described as conservatives. Some are union blue collar men types who hate George W. Bush but roll their eyes at things like same-sex marriage.

Don't assume they're all Mike Huckabee.

It's true that you can be secular and homophobic, yes, but what secular, rational argument is there that gay people are bad?  It's interesting that women, as a group, tend to be more religious yet less homophobic than men.  I suppose it's mostly macho straight men demonizing those who don't conform to "normal" gender roles.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I must oppose it, no matter whether I want to or not, or I am going directly against the word of god, which I am always striving to avoid.

If you see married same sex couples, some who have been together for years, decades even and they are caring for each other, supporting each other, nursing each other through illness and death, do you see in that 'sinful acts'?

When my husband was in hospital and I held his hand as he went under general anaesthetic and he came out of it, do you think that was a sinful act? When I changed his bandages and washed his scars was that a sinful act? I did these things because I love him more than I've ever known how to love. Was it the result of 'sinful' lust?

Gay Marriage is a sinful act. Now, caring for someone else is fine, and spousal hospital visitation rights are something  I'd be willing to allow under a civil union.

Homosexuals should be able to resist the urge to enter a full fledged marriage. I don't consider being/acting homosexual, or entering into a civil union that has clear differences from a marriage,  a sin. Caring for homos is not a sin, and I don't support conversion therapy or discrimination against homosexuals in education, employment, or provision of non-wedding-related services.

But once you enter into a full fledged gay marriage, or a gay civil union that is indistinguishable from a gay marriage, you are sinning and should be ashamed.

There's not enough moderation in your post.  Only 55% of gay marriages are sinful.

     Down from 62%!

[SteveRogers]

I must oppose it, no matter whether I want to or not, or I am going directly against the word of god, which I am always striving to avoid.

If you see married same sex couples, some who have been together for years, decades even and they are caring for each other, supporting each other, nursing each other through illness and death, do you see in that 'sinful acts'?

When my husband was in hospital and I held his hand as he went under general anaesthetic and he came out of it, do you think that was a sinful act? When I changed his bandages and washed his scars was that a sinful act? I did these things because I love him more than I've ever known how to love. Was it the result of 'sinful' lust?

Gay Marriage is a sinful act. Now, caring for someone else is fine, and spousal hospital visitation rights are something  I'd be willing to allow under a civil union.

Homosexuals should be able to resist the urge to enter a full fledged marriage. I don't consider being/acting homosexual, or entering into a civil union that has clear differences from a marriage,  a sin. Caring for homos is not a sin, and I don't support conversion therapy or discrimination against homosexuals in education, employment, or provision of non-wedding-related services.

But once you enter into a full fledged gay marriage, or a gay civil union that is indistinguishable from a gay marriage, you are sinning and should be ashamed.

Can you tell us specifically which marriage rights would be denied to gay couples in a civil union under your ideal version of a civil unions law?

[Reaganfan]

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Who ever said gay people were bad?