Should schools be able to expel students because of their speech
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  Should schools be able to expel students because of their speech
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Author Topic: Should schools be able to expel students because of their speech  (Read 3069 times)
Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas
Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2015, 09:15:48 PM »


Why are you quoting a Tea Party "law" teacher which happens to be one of the biggest idiots of the law world?

He's not agreeing with him, he's pointing out how funny it is that Volokh claimed that the students cannot be expelled, right before they were in fact expelled.

That doesn't really prove anything. The students in Tinker vs. Des Moines and their lawyers alleged that they couldn't be suspended, but the school suspended them. Then the Supreme Court agreed that they were right. We're only at stage two here.

Like I said, it really all depends on what the student code of conduct that they signed says.
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pbrower2a
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2015, 01:26:28 PM »

There is obviously much less tolerance for speech violations in a K-12 environment.

Most of us know the "magic words", basically what the late George Carlin used in his act "The Seven Dirty Words that You Cannot Say on Radio". Of course having been a substitute teacher I can deal with "I don't like this f---ing assignment" with a little lesson on how empty the vile word is in that context. I've told the kid "Now try saying that without the bad word". It works, and then I explain why the assignment must be done. (What is funny about the sketch is that like all words they are meaningless without context).

"F--- you!", said in anger, is for school administrators to deal with not so much because of the profanity but because those are "fighting words". "I will kill you!" also gets an immediate trip to the school administrators even if the kid said that he did not really mean it.

Children operate on a different level of morality than adults, and some conduct is likely to cause a fight. Because classroom fights result from hostility that escalates, I prefer to stop a fight before anyone resorts to assaultive behavior.
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MyRescueKittehRocks
JohanusCalvinusLibertas
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2015, 03:00:14 PM »

The Bill of Rights is between the federal government and the people not the University of Oklahoma and the people. There are no freedom of speech rights held by students.

Tinker vs Des Moines says differently
That is a bit different. You are forced to go to high school; it is compulsory. University, state or private, is a choice and not everyone could or should go. The university is in the right in this situation.

Isn't OU a public university that receives federal funding? If so the Feds may get involved. As someone who had to navigate freedom of speech issues in high school on religious freedom grounds I would have to agree with the students rights on this. (in spite of my opposition to said racist speech
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The Free North
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« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2015, 03:42:56 PM »

Universities have the right to say who attends, and a right to revoke the enrollment of those who break their policies.


Unless you want to make public universities a completely government controlled service, with free admission for all. But I doubt your libertarian ass wants that.

At least read what I wrote first...

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If you want an answer to that, then yes. It's 2015, sorry it's no longer okay to be racist.

So would you support expelling the students who have made threats of violence and bigoted speech towards greek members not-affiliated with this event?
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Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas
Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2015, 04:00:34 PM »

Universities have the right to say who attends, and a right to revoke the enrollment of those who break their policies.


Unless you want to make public universities a completely government controlled service, with free admission for all. But I doubt your libertarian ass wants that.

At least read what I wrote first...

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If you want an answer to that, then yes. It's 2015, sorry it's no longer okay to be racist.

So would you support expelling the students who have made threats of violence and bigoted speech towards greek members not-affiliated with this event?

Yes.

And frankly, I don't think it was justified to expel them for using the N-word. I think was justified to expel them for singing about lynching black students before letting them join. Incitement to murder should be grounds for expulsion.
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memphis
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« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2015, 04:46:24 PM »

I have no problem with people saying most things. If somebody wants to go around saying the world is flat, whatever. Threatening other people with violence is completely unacceptable, and one can find himself in a great deal of legal trouble for making specific threats.
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ag
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« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2015, 05:24:16 PM »

A university should NOT be able to expel students - or, for that matter, faculty - for (non-treatening) speech, however hateful. That is what university is about: speech.

I would get rid of the fraternity chapter, though. But, then, I would get rid of them all Smiley
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publicunofficial
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« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2015, 05:49:50 PM »

Conservatives believe the only people who should face responsibility for their actions are poor people and blacks. Frat bros deserve as many chances as possible.
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« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2015, 06:46:24 PM »

The school could have probably convinced the students to withdraw for their own safety and gotten the same result, without the minor controversy.
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DemPGH
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« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2015, 06:50:48 PM »

No.

Freedom of speech should apply in schools as well as the workplace, especially if it's to apply to how money, of all things, is spent.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2015, 06:59:21 PM »

Universities have the right to say who attends, and a right to revoke the enrollment of those who break their policies.


Unless you want to make public universities a completely government controlled service, with free admission for all. But I doubt your libertarian ass wants that.

At least read what I wrote first...

Quote
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If you want an answer to that, then yes. It's 2015, sorry it's no longer okay to be racist.

So would you support expelling the students who have made threats of violence and bigoted speech towards greek members not-affiliated with this event?

Yes.

And frankly, I don't think it was justified to expel them for using the N-word. I think was justified to expel them for singing about lynching black students before letting them join. Incitement to murder should be grounds for expulsion.

     While I am not familiar with the content of their lyrics, singing about committing murder is not incitement to murder per se. If they are inciting, they should be tried in a court of law and expelled should they be convicted.
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© tweed
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« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2015, 07:05:10 PM »

oh, I am just a student, sir
and only want to learn
but it's hard to read through the risin' smoke
from the books that you like to burn
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DrScholl
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« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2015, 07:07:08 PM »

This definitely could have created a hostile environment on campus, which is something that the school has to be mindful of. I think it was the right decision.
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badgate
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« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2015, 07:27:45 PM »


Why are you quoting a Tea Party "law" teacher which happens to be one of the biggest idiots of the law world?

Actually this is from the Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/10/no-a-public-university-may-not-expel-students-for-racist-speech/
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Türkisblau
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« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2015, 07:33:21 PM »

But why doesn't anyone protect the rights of the poor frat boys!
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Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas
Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2015, 07:39:00 PM »

Universities have the right to say who attends, and a right to revoke the enrollment of those who break their policies.


Unless you want to make public universities a completely government controlled service, with free admission for all. But I doubt your libertarian ass wants that.

At least read what I wrote first...

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

If you want an answer to that, then yes. It's 2015, sorry it's no longer okay to be racist.

So would you support expelling the students who have made threats of violence and bigoted speech towards greek members not-affiliated with this event?

Yes.

And frankly, I don't think it was justified to expel them for using the N-word. I think was justified to expel them for singing about lynching black students before letting them join. Incitement to murder should be grounds for expulsion.

     While I am not familiar with the content of their lyrics, singing about committing murder is not incitement to murder per se. If they are inciting, they should be tried in a court of law and expelled should they be convicted.

True, I should have said "advocating" rather than "inciting". While they didn't urge anyone on to lynch black people, their lyrics definitely seemed comfortable with it.
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morgieb
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« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2015, 09:17:51 PM »

Don't have any problems with this happening at a university.

School is a bit different though obviously.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2015, 09:58:05 PM »


It's from the Volokh Conspiracy blog.
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DemPGH
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« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2015, 11:31:20 AM »

I have to admit, though, that the SAE ordeal is pretty bad. I can definitely see shutting it down, and I don't like fraternities anyway, but shut it down and if need be, sanction those kids some other way, but saying something really, really stupid should not be grounds for expulsion or dismissal unless it is accompanied by disruptive or violent behavior.
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publicunofficial
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« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2015, 02:44:30 PM »

The disbanded SAE chapter is planning to sue the University of Oklahoma, as well as OU President David Boren.

They have reportedly hired high-profile attorney Stephen Jones, who's most high-profile case was the defense of Timothy McVeigh.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2015, 06:53:06 PM »

Conservatives believe the only people who should face responsibility for their actions are poor people and blacks. Frat bros deserve as many chances as possible.

Well duh. Remember Joe "I Apologize" Barton? Destroying the environment and causing billions of dollars worth of damage is nowhere near as bad as some black teenager smoking weed.
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publicunofficial
angryGreatness
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« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2015, 12:30:52 AM »

Conservatives believe the only people who should face responsibility for their actions are poor people and blacks. Frat bros deserve as many chances as possible.

Well duh. Remember Joe "I Apologize" Barton? Destroying the environment and causing billions of dollars worth of damage is nowhere near as bad as some black teenager smoking weed.

What really annoys me is that the expelled SAE students barely even apologized or showed any sort of remorse. The just said "Whoops sorry I was drunk" and were surprised when that didn't satisfy people.

As Jon Stewart pointed out, the black football player who posted an angry rant on Instagram against SAE not only had a more sincere apology, he aplogized FIRST and with no real pressure to do so.
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ingemann
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« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2015, 08:15:14 AM »

I would love to see a list of the kind of Unamerican speech, which can get students expelled.
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2015, 03:04:35 PM »

Conservatives believe the only people who should face responsibility for their actions are poor people and blacks. Frat bros deserve as many chances as possible.

Actually, it's liberal Democrats who they try to hold accountable, but they fail because conservative low-grade bigotry and paranoia stops them from acquiring any political power. It's an excellent political melodrama, similar to watching liberal Democrats "help" people with their "progressive" policies.

If you can detach yourself from the graphic violence, blind hate, utter lack of education, and pointless human suffering; the entertainment value surely rivals that of the ancient Coliseum.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2015, 03:29:07 PM »
« Edited: March 14, 2015, 03:32:42 PM by TheDeadFlagBlues »

The students shouldn't have been expelled but the fraternity should be shut down.

White people say the n-word in a hateful, racist manner all of the time without being punished. These students simply had the bad luck and poor judgement of recording themselves saying it. That's not a warrant for expulsion. Does that mean that the n-word should be permitted? No but it's not a punishable offense. The students should be required to take history or sociology classes focused on african-american issues without credit and they should be required to get at least an A-.

I don't like the idea of expelling people for hate speech because it forces universities to create a hierarchy of hate speech, which is liable to allow for hate speech against some groups but not others. For instance, I doubt if the students said "beaners won't be allowed in SAE" that they'd be expelled.
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