Should schools be able to expel students because of their speech

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I would love to see a list of the kind of Unamerican speech, which can get students expelled.

This has nothing to do with being "Unamerican". Saying the n-word is American as apple pie, baseball and the 4th of July. The problem is that it's racist.

[SteveRogers]

Bottom line is this: If the University is pressed on this issue (in other words, if the students sue), then the University will have to reframe their explanation for expelling the students in terms of conduct rather than just speech. But I don't think they'll have much trouble doing just that because the University can claim it expelled the students for furthering an actual policy of excluding minorities from the frat.

[ingemann]

I would love to see a list of the kind of Unamerican speech, which can get students expelled.

This has nothing to do with being "Unamerican". Saying the n-word is American as apple pie, baseball and the 4th of July. The problem is that it's racist.

"Sign"

You know the whole "First they came..." by Martin Niemöller. He doesn't mention people he liked, that "they" came for first (in fact he was a anti-communist). In the same way here, what are the next kind of speech, people will be expelled for? What you really open for is for the universities administration to establish a official ideology, which the students have to follow or at least stay silent against if they want to go to that college.

[MaxQue]

I would love to see a list of the kind of Unamerican speech, which can get students expelled.

This has nothing to do with being "Unamerican". Saying the n-word is American as apple pie, baseball and the 4th of July. The problem is that it's racist.

"Sign"

You know the whole "First they came..." by Martin Niemöller. He doesn't mention people he liked, that "they" came for first (in fact he was a anti-communist). In the same way here, what are the next kind of speech, people will be expelled for? What you really open for is for the universities administration to establish a official ideology, which the students have to follow or at least stay silent against if they want to go to that college.

Not allowing students to insult, bully or terrorize other students due to their skin colour doesn't seem to be an "official ideology". And, anyways, in Europe, that wouldn't be the question, the question would be "Should prosecutor file charges for heinous speech against those students?".

[ingemann]

I would love to see a list of the kind of Unamerican speech, which can get students expelled.

This has nothing to do with being "Unamerican". Saying the n-word is American as apple pie, baseball and the 4th of July. The problem is that it's racist.

"Sign"

You know the whole "First they came..." by Martin Niemöller. He doesn't mention people he liked, that "they" came for first (in fact he was a anti-communist). In the same way here, what are the next kind of speech, people will be expelled for? What you really open for is for the universities administration to establish a official ideology, which the students have to follow or at least stay silent against if they want to go to that college.

Not allowing students to insult, bully or terrorize other students due to their skin colour doesn't seem to be an "official ideology". And, anyways, in Europe, that wouldn't be the question, the question would be "Should prosecutor file charges for heinous speech against those students?".

First of all what do mean with Europe there's 30+ states in Europe with different laws on the subject.

Second I have just skimmed the case, so what I got was that these people had not sung the song in company of "POCs", but in private.

Of course I also try to take this up on a ideology plan, because of the name of this thread. Of course if you ask whether harassment should be reason to expel student; of course. But that's not what this thread ask about. It ask whether what students say should be ground for them being expelled.

So I'm curious what kind of speech should be reason for people being banned. Should it be speech which disturb the public order?

[politicus]

Not allowing students to insult, bully or terrorize other students due to their skin colour doesn't seem to be an "official ideology". And, anyways, in Europe, that wouldn't be the question, the question would be "Should prosecutor file charges for heinous speech against those students?".

Would depend on the country in question - very different laws.

The US focus on single words is not that common in European countries. In most places you do not get prosecuted for using a single word, but for making racist/hateful/highly derogatory statements about particular groups. "I do not like/want to associate with X group" is not criminalized.

The status of the n-word in the US as the ultimate expression of racism is rather unique. The sheer fact the saying or writing the word is in itself a taboo no matter the context is special.

...

Not a fan of using classes in African-American culture and history as a punishment. Academic education should not be a punishment. I also highly doubt the frat boys dislike of blacks is a result of ignorance about black history and culture.

[Mister Mets]

The rationale given to expel the students was problematic on first amendment grounds.

However, for the school to lose in the courts, there would have to be a legal fight. This seems unlikely.

And there were other reasons to expel them. I'm sure the song violated some university conduct rules. They also admit to discriminating against black students.

[Bacon King]

Here's the actual press release from Boren about the expulsions:



In particular, note that the expulsions are because of "threatening racist behavior" which "created a hostile learning environment for others". I believe this is an entirely reasonable and valid justification.

[Torie]

Perhaps a distinction should be made between speech in the context of attempting to advocate a particular point of view in some rational manner, as opposed to speech that is just slogans, and taunting and harassing. Demeanor is important.

[© tweed]

Perhaps a distinction should be made between speech in the context of attempting to advocate a particular point of view in some rational manner, as opposed to speech that is just slogans, and taunting and harassing. Demeanor is important.

they've sure done this in labor law.  protection from being fired for speech doesn't extend beyond speech directly related to union or collective activity.  "the boss sucks" doesn't count.  along these lines those who want to can argue that racist sing-songs are not political in nature and thus not protected speech..

the dumb thing is, the prez didn't have to do anything.  the kids in the video would've had to leave campus for their own safety.

[Cory]

Not allowing students to insult, bully or terrorize other students due to their skin colour doesn't seem to be an "official ideology".

Except that's not at all what happened. If somebody gets recorded in private saying they hate <insert group here> that doesn't, or at least shouldn't, constitute bullying, insulting, or threatening.

And, anyways, in Europe, that wouldn't be the question, the question would be "Should prosecutor file charges for heinous speech against those students?".

But that's freaking stupid, and is nothing to be proud of. You can have freedom of speech, not "freedom of speech except.....".

If you have the latter then you don't really have freedom of speech at all, just freedom of popular speech.

[politicus]

the dumb thing is, the prez didn't have to do anything.  the kids in the video would've had to leave campus for their own safety.

If true, that would be a separate problem in itself.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

I would love to see a list of the kind of Unamerican speech, which can get students expelled.

This has nothing to do with being "Unamerican". Saying the n-word is American as apple pie, baseball and the 4th of July. The problem is that it's racist.

"Sign"

You know the whole "First they came..." by Martin Niemöller. He doesn't mention people he liked, that "they" came for first (in fact he was a anti-communist). In the same way here, what are the next kind of speech, people will be expelled for? What you really open for is for the universities administration to establish a official ideology, which the students have to follow or at least stay silent against if they want to go to that college.

i will never stop laughing at people who unironically compare racists (etc) to jews (etc) in nazi germany.

[ingemann]

I would love to see a list of the kind of Unamerican speech, which can get students expelled.

This has nothing to do with being "Unamerican". Saying the n-word is American as apple pie, baseball and the 4th of July. The problem is that it's racist.

"Sign"

You know the whole "First they came..." by Martin Niemöller. He doesn't mention people he liked, that "they" came for first (in fact he was a anti-communist). In the same way here, what are the next kind of speech, people will be expelled for? What you really open for is for the universities administration to establish a official ideology, which the students have to follow or at least stay silent against if they want to go to that college.

i will never stop laughing at people who unironically compare racists (etc) to jews (etc) in nazi germany.

Impressive misreading of what I wrote. Try to look at the bolded sentence in what I wrote, and then look at the bolded sentence in Niemöller's poem.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yes I was comparing these frat douche bros with interbellum German communists, not with the German Jews at the time. The point of Niemöller's poem is the lack of reaction when it start, because "they" always start with unpleasant people.

[King]

The argument really isn't about what speech is permissible.

The student could have chanted "no n----rs in SAE" or "free healthcare for all." Whatever. Universities, even public universities, should be allowed to expel a student for any reason it wants to expel a student.  Selectivity is part of the college process. Admissions select the students and students select their school. If that is unconstitutional then the Constitution needs to be amended because the Constitution is wrong.

I will never care about a student being expelled and what rights they have to attend said school. They can just go to another school.

There are people suffering real impossible justices in our country and world. Let's not waste time defending those who are suffering minor inconveniences as a result of their own actions.

[ingemann]

The argument really isn't about what speech is permissible.

The student could have chanted "no n----rs in SAE" or "free healthcare for all." Whatever. Universities, even public universities, should be allowed to expel a student for any reason it wants to expel a student.  Selectivity is part of the college process. Admissions select the students and students select their school. If that is unconstitutional then the Constitution needs to be amended because the Constitution is wrong.

I will never care about a student being expelled and what rights they have to attend said school. They can just go to another school.

There are people suffering real impossible justices in our country and world. Let's not waste time defending those who are suffering minor inconveniences as a result of their own actions.

I don't give a flying f**k about these c**nts, what I give a f**k about, are the goddammit shortsightedness of the Left. These c**nts are not thrown out for being a bunch of racist douchebags, they're thrown out for giving OU bad press. You can easily see less deserving victims the next time, and even worse crap like this can in the long term, result in these things becoming wedge issues.

[King]

Wedge issue for what?

[ingemann]

Wedge issue for what?

Wedge issue for the state making public universities ideological "fair and balanced". If public funded universities begin to push a ideological doctrine, you open up for the the Right using the government to enforce ideological "neutrality".

[King]

Conservatives already think universities have a liberal bias.

[ingemann]

Conservatives already think universities have a liberal bias.

Yes and they're correct, but when you begin to purge them, you risk they begin to react to that.

[King]

They already react no matter what. Don't pander to them by not doing the right thing.

[ingemann]

They already react no matter what. Don't pander to them by not doing the right thing.

... and here we have "The Answer" to why you have the Conservative have been able to pull USA to the right the last 35 years.

[King]

Okay.

[Cory]

The student could have chanted "no n----rs in SAE" or "free healthcare for all." Whatever. Universities, even public universities, should be allowed to expel a student for any reason it wants to expel a student.  Selectivity is part of the college process. Admissions select the students and students select their school. If that is unconstitutional then the Constitution needs to be amended because the Constitution is wrong.

No they shouldn't. Do you think it would be okay for a school to not allow blacks to attend because reasons? Of course not. This standard of yours only applies to people you don't like.

The blatant double standards and intellectual dishonesty of the SJW types on this issues is absurd.

[RI]

A school should be able to expel a student for any reason that they're allowed to use to deny their initial application.