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Poll
Question: ... in a Northern Ireland constituency, how will you vote?
#1
Ulster Unionist
 
#2
Democratic Unionist
 
#3
Social Democratic & Labour
 
#4
Sinn Fein
 
#5
Alliance
 
#6
Workers Party
 
#7
Socialist Environmentalist Alliance
 
#8
Conservative
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 36

Author Topic: Consider that you are voting...  (Read 5446 times)
Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2005, 11:26:26 AM »

PUP would be ideal as they're supposedly the only real leftist Protestant party, but from what I heard they're barely around anymore.

Oh, Ervine is still around, is still an MLA (when Stormont is in session...) and still has about 10% of East Belfast voters in his back pocket. He pulled out of the race in favour of Empey (UUP) and wants his voters to vote against Robinson.
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patrick1
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« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2005, 11:45:49 AM »

PUP would be ideal as they're supposedly the only real leftist Protestant party, but from what I heard they're barely around anymore.

I'd probably vote strategically too depending on my constituency, basically try to wipe out anyone who belongs to the DUP or Sinn Fein and vote for whoever has the best chance of beating them if they were my MP. Both the DUP and Sinn Fein deserve nothing more than complete annihilation.

That is a rather strong opinion to have from Minnesota.  Have you actually ever been to the North?  The political realities in Northern Ireland are such that people feel compelled to vote for these parties because they both hold to firm principles and represent their community interests. 

The PUP, btw, was founded as a front for a terrorst organization.  I happen to like Ervine though because he has supported the working classes of both sides and is a political realist.

I support the goals, if not always the means, of Sinn Fein. 
Tiocfaidh ar la 
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2005, 11:46:57 AM »

Yeah, hating SF but supporting PUP isn't really a coherent opinion.
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patrick1
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« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2005, 11:58:13 AM »
« Edited: April 29, 2005, 12:02:16 PM by patrick1 »

Yeah, hating SF but supporting PUP isn't really a coherent opinion.

That is what happens when someone only has a superficial understanding of the history and politics.  You can't really decry the party of Adams and McGuinness and support the party that had the  the likes of guys like Gusty Spence and Michael Stone-(what Stone did was considered taboo even in the time of Homer's Illiad.)  Lenny Murphy deserves a mention as well.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2005, 12:08:55 PM »

Here it is:

East Antrim: Neeson (APNI)
East Belfast: Long (APNI) unless it's looking close by polling day... in which case I'd get a nosepeg, put it on vote for *shudders* Empey (UUP), go home and have a shower.
East Londonderry/Derry: Dallat (SDLP)
Fermanagh and South Tyrone: Gallagher (SDLP)
Foyle: Durkan (SDLP). See it more as a tribute vote for Hume than anything else...
Lagan Valley: Close (APNI)
Mid Ulster: McGuiness (SF) who's one of the few Shinners I could vote for... and letting a McCrea in by the back door is not something I'd like to do...
Newry & Armagh: Bradley (SDLP). Not that it'll make any difference.
North Antrim: Farren (SDLP). I might be tempted to vote SF out of spite actually...
North Belfast: Maginness (SDLP)
North Down: Lady Sylvia Hermon (UUP)
South Antrim: Ford (APNI)
South Belfast: ooh... don't know. Either McGimpsey (UUP) or McDonell (SDLP). Basically whichever one looks most likely to beat the DUP on polling day...
South Down: McGrady (SDLP). He beat Enoch Powell. Nuff said.
Strangford: McGimpsey (UUP)
Upper Bann: Castle (APNI). I might vote tactically for Trimble, but it looks too late for that now.
West Belfast: Attwood (SDLP)
West Tyrone: Dr Deeny (Ind)
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BRTD
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« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2005, 12:10:55 PM »

I don't like Sinn Fein because I'm Protestant and don't like the DUP because they're against the peace agreements and overall Paisley is just plain ing nuts.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2005, 12:12:45 PM »

Re: Al. Looks pretty good.
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patrick1
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« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2005, 12:49:12 PM »

I don't like Sinn Fein because I'm Protestant and don't like the DUP because they're against the peace agreements and overall Paisley is just plain g nuts.

BRTD, I agree with you about Paisley but his "No Surrender" approach goes to the heart of the traditional Loyalist movement going back to Edward Carson and  further to the Plantations of Ulster.  Sinn Fein is not a sectarian organization in theory- it just is in reality because the Protestants of the North of Ireland reject the goals and wish to remain part of the UK.  Most Unionist parties especially D.U.P. make a point of stressing their Protestant identity. 
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BRTD
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« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2005, 08:57:15 PM »

What would Protestants gain from reunification with Ireland? They have no reason to support Sinn Fein or the IRA terrorist thugs. Protestant have as much reason to like Sinn Fein as Catholics do to like the DUP. Not to mention Gerry Adams is a dispicable piece of human trash, just like Paisley.
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patrick1
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« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2005, 03:09:31 AM »
« Edited: April 30, 2005, 03:22:37 AM by patrick1 »

What would Protestants gain from reunification with Ireland? They have no reason to support Sinn Fein or the IRA terrorist thugs. Protestant have as much reason to like Sinn Fein as Catholics do to like the DUP. Not to mention Gerry Adams is a dispicable piece of human trash, just like Paisley.

BRTD a little damned consistency would go a long way.  From anyone else I could accept those comments but not from someone who consistantly glorifies any leftist with an AK or tin horn leftist dictator. 

As for what the Protestants would gain, who knows?  The land was stolen and given to Protestant settlers.  I will remind you of your staggering hypocrisy when you decry the plight of the Black south Africans and called the murder of Apartheid police officers completely justified.  The Protestant community is entrenched though and I personally pray for continued peace.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2005, 03:35:29 AM »

Ah, one correction. Country Antrim was never "stolen and the land given to Protestant settlers". Although they themselves, some of them, don't like to hear it, most Presbyterians in Northern Ireland are as Irish as they come. (well, many of them do have relations in Scotland. People have been marrying to and fro across that channel since time immemorial.)
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patrick1
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« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2005, 04:08:34 AM »

Ah, one correction. Country Antrim was never "stolen and the land given to Protestant settlers". Although they themselves, some of them, don't like to hear it, most Presbyterians in Northern Ireland are as Irish as they come. (well, many of them do have relations in Scotland. People have been marrying to and fro across that channel since time immemorial.)

Nice try.  But that is duplicitous B.S.  I suppose I could say the same thing about Germany and France intermingling.  Yes the Scots were an Irish tribe  and there was always gene flow etc etc.  However,  the crown in order to get those pesky dissenters out of the hair confiscated Native Catolic Irish land and set up plantations for Scots Presbyterians.  Earlier settlement were established by Anglicans in the better farmlands of Western Ulster and Ireland at large.   The North/Ulster was always the traditional base of opposition to the English monarchy-  The strongest clan being the Ui Neill.  After their defeat in the rebellion of 1603 and the subsequent crown crackdown- the traditional Chieftains or Earls left Ireland for good. the monarchy was able to consolidate their power in the North and small Catholic freeholders were evicted.  I could go on ad nausineam but the fact remains that the land was confiscated and given to "loyal" Protestants. 
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2005, 04:28:07 AM »

Yes. And no. All you're saying is right. About five of these counties at least. There never was a planned settlement of Antrim County because it wasn't considered necessary, most of the population being protestant. This is not to say, of course, that no indivicual catholics were displaced etc. I bet they were.
As a result of this, though, by the early 19th century Antrim had the highest proportion of Catholic land ownership in Ireland (or maybe that was in ireland outside Connacht, don't nail me on that one) - about 25%, equalling their share of the population. While everywhere else, of course, the population was Catholic but the land was owned by absentee English protestants.
The Ui Niall / O'Neills were from Tyrone. They found their way into Christopher Marlowe's Edward II, btw.

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patrick1
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« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2005, 05:11:18 AM »
« Edited: April 30, 2005, 05:14:59 AM by patrick1 »

Yes. And no. All you're saying is right. About five of these counties at least. There never was a planned settlement of Antrim County because it wasn't considered necessary, most of the population being protestant. This is not to say, of course, that no indivicual catholics were displaced etc. I bet they were.
As a result of this, though, by the early 19th century Antrim had the highest proportion of Catholic land ownership in Ireland (or maybe that was in ireland outside Connacht, don't nail me on that one) - about 25%, equalling their share of the population. While everywhere else, of course, the population was Catholic but the land was owned by absentee English protestants.
The Ui Niall / O'Neills were from Tyrone. They found their way into Christopher Marlowe's Edward II, btw.


Rhodesia wasn't really a government sponsored planting either... That does not mean that the theft and dispossession of Catholic landholders did not take place with the knowledge and support of the Crown.  History, of course, is never this cut and dry but for the sake of brevity one needs to make some generalizations.  This issue is close to my heart as some of my ancestors are from Armagh and Antrim (even a Scots derived surname;) but they were removed due to there republican activity.

Antrim is beautiful, btw.  My favorite county aesthetically. I've spent quite a bit of time in the Glens. If you haven't been you definetly should go.

And yes I am suffering from some pretty good insomnia.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2005, 05:25:44 AM »

Oh, yeah, it's early morning in America...
Republican activity? That would mean 20th or late 19th century.
Rhodesia was done by private companies IIRC...that's actually quite a bit like what happened in Northern Ireland outside Antrim. Except here the companies (and in the case of Derry, the City of London) bought the rights to do that from the crown. If I remember correctly. Big if perhaps.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2005, 10:08:06 AM »

Ah... land theft. Don't get me started on that... happend just as bad in England as in Ireland, although in a different way (religion wasn't used as an excuse and there was no colonisation as such) and they used a different euphamism to "plantations"; "enclosures"...

I better stop now or this will turn into an seriously ugly rant... Angry
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BRTD
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« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2005, 12:29:07 PM »
« Edited: April 30, 2005, 12:31:42 PM by Senate Candidate BRTD »

What would Protestants gain from reunification with Ireland? They have no reason to support Sinn Fein or the IRA terrorist thugs. Protestant have as much reason to like Sinn Fein as Catholics do to like the DUP. Not to mention Gerry Adams is a dispicable piece of human trash, just like Paisley.

BRTD a little damned consistency would go a long way.  From anyone else I could accept those comments but not from someone who consistantly glorifies any leftist with an AK or tin horn leftist dictator. 

As for what the Protestants would gain, who knows?  The land was stolen and given to Protestant settlers.  I will remind you of your staggering hypocrisy when you decry the plight of the Black south Africans and called the murder of Apartheid police officers completely justified.  The Protestant community is entrenched though and I personally pray for continued peace.

actually you're making a common error that many here do quit frequently and confusing supporting someone with wanting to have sex with them. I had made my condemnation of groups like Shining Path pretty clear.

Now if Catholics were prohibited from most jobs, prohibited from living anywhere but the slumbs, were required to have a special pass to travel to many areas, were prohibited from buying alcohol and were forced to use segregated transportation that was far inferior, than it could be compared to apartheid. Even then one could fairly easily escape their situation and convert to Protestantism, but you can't change your skin color. As for the land stealing, that might be a legitimate complaint but I doubt you'd be too fond of Native Americans demanding that you leave now and they be given the whole country back. You can't punish people now for what their ancestors did 300 years ago.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2005, 12:32:18 PM »

What would Protestants gain from reunification with Ireland? They have no reason to support Sinn Fein or the IRA terrorist thugs. Protestant have as much reason to like Sinn Fein as Catholics do to like the DUP. Not to mention Gerry Adams is a dispicable piece of human trash, just like Paisley.

BRTD a little damned consistency would go a long way.  From anyone else I could accept those comments but not from someone who consistantly glorifies any leftist with an AK or tin horn leftist dictator. 

As for what the Protestants would gain, who knows?  The land was stolen and given to Protestant settlers.  I will remind you of your staggering hypocrisy when you decry the plight of the Black south Africans and called the murder of Apartheid police officers completely justified.  The Protestant community is entrenched though and I personally pray for continued peace.

actually you're making a common error that many here do quit frequently and confusing supporting someone with wanting to have sex with them. I had made my condemnation of groups like Shining Path pretty clear.

Now if Catholics were prohibited from most jobs, prohibited from living anywhere but the slumbs, were required to have a special pass to travel to many areas, were prohibited from buying alcohol and were forced to use segregated transportation that was far inferior, than it could be compared to apartheid. As for the land stealing, that might be a legitimate complaint but I doubt you'd be too fond of Native Americans demanding that you leave now and they be given the whole country back. You can't punish people now for what their ancestors did 300 years ago.
They couldn't join the police, for a long time. They still de facto can't (and Unionist opposition to police reform has been one of the largest stumbling blocks since Good Friday.) Most of Northern Ireland is utterly segregated, and yeah, most of Catholic Belfast is slum. And I mean "segregated" as in "unsafe to travel in if you're not of the same group".
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BRTD
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« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2005, 12:34:06 PM »

How can they tell if you're Catholic or Protestant and thus in the "wrong" group when you're in an area?
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2005, 12:49:03 PM »

Probably not. It's not as if accents gave you away. Although first names do. So basically it's dangerous only when they know your face.
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patrick1
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« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2005, 02:14:45 PM »

What would Protestants gain from reunification with Ireland? They have no reason to support Sinn Fein or the IRA terrorist thugs. Protestant have as much reason to like Sinn Fein as Catholics do to like the DUP. Not to mention Gerry Adams is a dispicable piece of human trash, just like Paisley.

BRTD a little damned consistency would go a long way.  From anyone else I could accept those comments but not from someone who consistantly glorifies any leftist with an AK or tin horn leftist dictator. 

As for what the Protestants would gain, who knows?  The land was stolen and given to Protestant settlers.  I will remind you of your staggering hypocrisy when you decry the plight of the Black south Africans and called the murder of Apartheid police officers completely justified.  The Protestant community is entrenched though and I personally pray for continued peace.

Now if Catholics were prohibited from most jobs, prohibited from living anywhere but the slumbs, were required to have a special pass to travel to many areas, were prohibited from buying alcohol and were forced to use segregated transportation that was far inferior, than it could be compared to apartheid. Even then one could fairly easily escape their situation and convert to Protestantism, but you can't change your skin color. As for the land stealing, that might be a legitimate complaint but I doubt you'd be too fond of Native Americans demanding that you leave now and they be given the whole country back. You can't punish people now for what their ancestors did 300 years ago.

Catholics were excluded from most jobs (um Harlann and Wolff)- Catholic unemployment was more than double that of Prods, there were unequal voting rights, the housing commissions was discriminatory, the R.U.C. was an instrument of intimidation- over 95% Prod,  Catholics were burned out of their homes, internment was a massive violation of rights. There was collussion between loyalist paramilitaries and the police/army.  As for the converting thing- you don't give up your most firmly held beliefs for expediency- that is an absurd suggestion.  Catholics were treated as second class "citizens" in their own land. 
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BRTD
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« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2005, 02:19:17 PM »

well the situation isn't as bad now. Catholics taking over would basically be a Zimbabwe solution, you go from mistreating one group to mistreating another. Given the choice between a fairly socially progressive country like the UK, and a country as socially conservative as the Republican of Ireland, I'll take the UK any day.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2005, 02:19:53 PM »

The truely shocking thing about the military collusion with the Loyalist paramilitaries is that the soldiers were sent to NI to protect the Catholic minority... Bearing in mind how fast things went downhill during the '70's and '80's it's amazing to think that we can look at the sitution today and say that it's bad.

I can remember when I was a kid that we were all a bit nervous about going into city centres
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patrick1
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« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2005, 02:20:18 PM »

How can they tell if you're Catholic or Protestant and thus in the "wrong" group when you're in an area?

Northern Ireland is a pretty small place and neighborhoods are very tightly knit (unlike the U.S.)  People know when you are not one of "them".  Also don't be stupid enough to wear the wrong soccer jersey in the wrong neighborhood- that can get ugly.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2005, 02:21:25 PM »

a fairly socially progressive country like the UK

Since when? Even during the social liberal peak in the '60's, 20 million people watched the blatently racist "Black and White Minstrel Show" every bloody week.
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