Why are most Western Islamic converts women?
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  Why are most Western Islamic converts women?
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they don't love you like i love you
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« on: March 12, 2015, 08:49:21 AM »

So I've heard that by some estimates as many as 80% of converts to Islam in Western countries are women. Struck me as pretty surprising, you'd think women would be rather adverse to Islam for obvious reasons.
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2015, 08:55:03 AM »

Well I think that for so many first learning about it, Islam presents a vision of equality and fairness, making it an attractive religion to be part of.  But if three-quarters or so of most converts are indeed female, that'd be very surprising.
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bore
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2015, 09:11:03 AM »

Maybe western women are more likely to marry muslim men than the other way round?
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2015, 09:14:12 AM »

Maybe western women are more likely to marry muslim men than the other way round?
Actually Muslim women can't marry non-Muslim men.  It's a bit complicated why but at heart it's because that husband may try to prevent her from observing her religion.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2015, 10:12:13 AM »


It's probably for much the same reason why back in Roman days women were more likely than men to convert to Judaism.  No snip-snip is involved.
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ingemann
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2015, 10:23:04 AM »

Maybe western women are more likely to marry muslim men than the other way round?
Actually Muslim women can't marry non-Muslim men.  It's a bit complicated why but at heart it's because that husband may try to prevent her from observing her religion.

I'm sure Bore know that, that doesn't change the fact that outmarriage among Muslims are more common among men than women, and women who marry Muslim men also often convert.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2015, 10:25:10 AM »

Pretty easy:

They meet and marry Muslim men, who either directly or indirectly pressure them into converting to Islam.

Basically Stockholm syndrome.
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2015, 10:48:28 AM »

Pretty easy:

They meet and marry Muslim men, who either directly or indirectly pressure them into converting to Islam.

Basically Stockholm syndrome.
I disagree with the idea that Stockholm Syndrome is involved.
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Stranger in a strange land
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2015, 12:00:11 PM »

I'm almost certain marriage is the main reason: while Muslim men are in theory allowed to marry Jewish and Christian women, most scholars only allow this with restrictions that render most of them off limits. Much easier to get community and family approval if she converts to Islam. Muslim women are much more strongly discouraged from marrying, dating, or even meeting non-Muslim men.
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Clarko95 📚💰📈
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2015, 12:12:02 PM »

So I've heard that by some estimates as many as 80% of converts to Islam in Western countries are women. Struck me as pretty surprising, you'd think women would be rather adverse to Islam for obvious reasons.
Well, I think the whole "Islam oppresses women" thing has more to do with Middle Eastern culture rather than what Islam actually teaches about women. Same thing with the Bible, and this problem is also present even with Hinduism. Hinduism, Christianity, and Islam all have texts praising women and holding them in high esteem, almost equal to or even superior to men in some cases, but the culture that is currently present in places like the Middle East and India are pretty mysogynistic.

You can even cite/cherry-pick the Bible (or really any major religion) to justify biblical patriarchy, but in secular nations in the West, women are far less oppressed than in other countries (not that it's perfect).

So, in addition to the intermarriage thing mentioned many times above, an academic study of Islam can lead women to find that Islam is egalitarian with women, but it's just a patriarchal culture present in the Middle East and the Islamophobic fearmongering that gives people the idea that Islam is a mysogynistic/patriarchal religion.
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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2015, 01:39:48 PM »

Where is the source for this fact?  If it's true, my guess would be that many of these "conversions" are pro-forma in the context of a marriage so people's parents are happy.   

For people who truly convert, it's a tough question.  The bigger question is why would anyone actually convert from one religion to another.  It's a very strange thing to do.  There's no good reason to have any particular religion and people become religious through their family and upbringing 99% of the time. 

So, I think it must be a combination of alienation from your upbringing and being a messed up person.  A lot of people convert religions in prison, right?  When someone is desperate or alienated, the exotic, oriental nature and self-denial of Islam could seem like a virtue.

As to the point of Islam's women problem, I could see your point.  Islam is very sexist and patriarchal, often treating women like objects and denigrating them in a variety of ways.  But, I think that actually appeals to some people.  The Muslim woman costume could seem like a defiant or rebellious thing to wear, because it makes you stand out in many places.  And, the denial of the self and the "prostration" before God that attracts people, that same feelings could transfer over to submission and prostration before men.
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ingemann
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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2015, 03:22:39 PM »

So I've heard that by some estimates as many as 80% of converts to Islam in Western countries are women. Struck me as pretty surprising, you'd think women would be rather adverse to Islam for obvious reasons.
Well, I think the whole "Islam oppresses women" thing has more to do with Middle Eastern culture rather than what Islam actually teaches about women. Same thing with the Bible, and this problem is also present even with Hinduism. Hinduism, Christianity, and Islam all have texts praising women and holding them in high esteem, almost equal to or even superior to men in some cases, but the culture that is currently present in places like the Middle East and India are pretty mysogynistic.

You can even cite/cherry-pick the Bible (or really any major religion) to justify biblical patriarchy, but in secular nations in the West, women are far less oppressed than in other countries (not that it's perfect).

So, in addition to the intermarriage thing mentioned many times above, an academic study of Islam can lead women to find that Islam is egalitarian with women, but it's just a patriarchal culture present in the Middle East and the Islamophobic fearmongering that gives people the idea that Islam is a mysogynistic/patriarchal religion.

I'm not impressed.

Here's the main difference between Muslims and Christians, outside a bunch of theological illiterate Christians, all Christian branches agree that the Bible are written by imperfect men. The vast majority of Muslims, especially Sunnis on the other hand, believe that the Koran is God's word directly written down.

What do this mean in practice. It means that Christians can say but that's the Old Testaments, it's Paulus's Letters or it was another time etc. Muslims on the other hand, have a much harder time updating their beliefs (unless it's the Hadiths and not the Koran). Because if it's the direct Word of God, it must be a permanent rule. As such it's much harder to put a egalitarian spin on modern Islam, even through it was very egalitarian for the time and place it was written.
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Beet
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2015, 09:14:57 AM »

Yes, it's a mystery that with atheism so favorable towards women, any women at all convert to misogynistic religion.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2015, 12:20:36 PM »

I'll go out on a limb here and wager that I am the only person in this thread who actually has firsthand experience with this subject. The converts I know are in fact mostly women, none of whom converted for the purposes of marriage. If I were to guess at a reason, it would be that women tend to find themselves marginalized in society to a much greater extent than men, which might lead one to seek out religion. I think it's worthwhile in this case to examine social expectations placed on women, but I couldn't comment further on that, seeing as that I am not a woman.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2015, 02:57:56 PM »

How is this even related to what you said? Are you saying that Muslim men kidnap non-Muslim women and force them to marry them?
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SWE
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« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2015, 03:08:53 PM »

Pretty easy:

They meet and marry Muslim men, who either directly or indirectly pressure them into converting to Islam.

Basically Stockholm syndrome.
Wanting to have the same religion as your spouse is Stockholm Sydrome?
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bedstuy
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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2015, 04:30:26 PM »

Pretty easy:

They meet and marry Muslim men, who either directly or indirectly pressure them into converting to Islam.

Basically Stockholm syndrome.
Wanting to have the same religion as your spouse is Stockholm Sydrome?

Marriage clearly the opposite of Stockholm Syndrome.  Instead of going from hating to loving someone because you've spent a lot of time with them, you go from loving to hating someone because you've spent a lot of time with them.
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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2015, 05:13:20 PM »


The idea that the misogyny of this "New Atheist" movement (whom the vast majority of people have not even heard of) would have any noticeable effect on the amount of men and women converting to Islam, is just insane.

And though I don't claim to have any knowledge of the Quran, the second site hardly seems to be an unbiased source, to say the least. It doesn't really matter though.
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Beet
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« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2015, 05:38:22 PM »


The idea that the misogyny of this "New Atheist" movement (whom the vast majority of people have not even heard of) would have any noticeable effect on the amount of men and women converting to Islam, is just insane.

Not as insane as making generalizations about women in the West, or women as a whole, based on a few thousand converts. It's just funny how some atheists act superior because they think being atheist automatically makes them more progressive on gender (this obviously doesn't apply to BRTD because he's Christian), but when a girl posts a photo of herself with a Carl Sagan book in an atheist space, this happens.

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Sure, but nothing is unbiased...
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RFayette
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« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2015, 05:55:18 PM »
« Edited: March 13, 2015, 05:57:28 PM by RFayette »


The idea that the misogyny of this "New Atheist" movement (whom the vast majority of people have not even heard of) would have any noticeable effect on the amount of men and women converting to Islam, is just insane.

Not as insane as making generalizations about women in the West, or women as a whole, based on a few thousand converts. It's just funny how some atheists act superior because they think being atheist automatically makes them more progressive on gender (this obviously doesn't apply to BRTD because he's Christian), but when a girl posts a photo of herself with a Carl Sagan book in an atheist space, this happens.

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Sure, but nothing is unbiased...

OK, but Islamic tradition and culture is perfectly fine with beating wives....plus, there are verses in Holy texts that are inherently sexist.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/beating.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/003-wife-beating.htm

Universalism, liberal Protestantism, and atheism/agnosticism are all far friendlier to women than the "religion of peace" ever will be.  The Muslim girls in my school are forbidden from playing sports or dating and must wear extensive covering.  Sure, there may be feminist themes to parts of the Quran, but as a whole, it tends to be bad when the faith is put into practice.
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Beet
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« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2015, 06:05:17 PM »

The debate over Islam has been had too many times in other threads- but suffice it to say, any sort of essentialism of Islam as anti-feminist is incorrect ( There are Islamic girls who play sports, and there is nothing intrinsically anti-feminist about covering. )- or at the very least, antithetical to the opinions of Islamic women feminists. And hence the problem for those who want to indict Islam as intrinsically anti-feminist: it requires defeating the voice of Islamic women feminists who actually embody a feminist version of Islam. You have old white men like Richard Dawkins tweeting patronizingly against Malala Yousafzai, because "he's atheist, so he knows better durr". Anyone who thinks that's feminist has no clue.
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RFayette
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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2015, 06:18:41 PM »

The debate over Islam has been had too many times in other threads- but suffice it to say, any sort of essentialism of Islam as anti-feminist is incorrect ( There are Islamic girls who play sports, and there is nothing intrinsically anti-feminist about covering. )- or at the very least, antithetical to the opinions of Islamic women feminists. And hence the problem for those who want to indict Islam as intrinsically anti-feminist: it requires defeating the voice of Islamic women feminists who actually embody a feminist version of Islam. You have old white men like Richard Dawkins tweeting patronizingly against Malala Yousafzai, because "he's atheist, so he knows better durr". Anyone who thinks that's feminist has no clue.

I agree there are Muslim feminists, but they, like Christian feminists, almost always take their holy book less seriously and/or literally. 


The more of a hard-line stance a Christian takes on "The Bible is the inerrant word of God and is absolute literal truth," the more anti-feminist he or she would tend to be.

To my understanding this is similar with Islam.

However, Islam, on average, has less wiggle-room than Christianity due to the lack of the Old Testament/New Testament dichotomy.  So there are liberal Muslims, but they're rarer.

And requiring covering is inherently anti-feminist as no equivalent stricture exists for men.
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Beet
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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2015, 06:26:37 PM »

The debate over Islam has been had too many times in other threads- but suffice it to say, any sort of essentialism of Islam as anti-feminist is incorrect ( There are Islamic girls who play sports, and there is nothing intrinsically anti-feminist about covering. )- or at the very least, antithetical to the opinions of Islamic women feminists. And hence the problem for those who want to indict Islam as intrinsically anti-feminist: it requires defeating the voice of Islamic women feminists who actually embody a feminist version of Islam. You have old white men like Richard Dawkins tweeting patronizingly against Malala Yousafzai, because "he's atheist, so he knows better durr". Anyone who thinks that's feminist has no clue.

I agree there are Muslim feminists, but they, like Christian feminists, almost always take their holy book less seriously and/or literally.

Says who? Also, taking less literally does not always mean taking less seriously.

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Again, taking literally =/= taking more seriously. And "hard line" usually refers to emphasizing certain aspects of religion which are culturally conservative, sure. But that does not make one more true in their religion than someone who does not take a "hard line".

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So what? The rarity does mean their beliefs are invalid. Once, abolitionists were exceedingly rare.

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Covering is not anti-feminist, though. Requiring something of women we do not require for men is anti-feminist, but those who require such things are hardly alone in this. In corporate America, many women are forced to wear makeup, skirts and high heels to "look professional", even though these things can be time-consuming, costly, uncomfortable and unhealthy. But more to the point, not all Muslims agree that the head covering should be required (just as not all Christians do, even though the requirement is in the New Testament that women be covered in church).
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Beet
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« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2015, 06:43:29 PM »

Further, the position that Islam is intrinsically anti-feminist, is itself anti-feminist, for some obvious reasons.

First of all, there are some wonderful things about Islam. It is the religion of a billion people, and it would not be so, if it offered them no meaning, joy, sustenance, pride or beauty. If you say that Islam is anti-feminist, then you say that women who partake in Islam are partaking in something anti-feminist, forcing them to choose between either Islam or equality. Men, on the other hand, do not face this choice. A man can choose to convert to Islam, without giving up his rights. A woman cannot. This is a profound sexism, even more profound once one considers the privileged place Islam holds in many cultures. Her only hope of living a life as full and complete as a man's is if it can be established that Islam and gender equality can coexist. This does not mean that Islam as currently practiced cannot be criticized, only that the assumption that Islam is anti-feminist by nature must be discarded.

Second of all, countries that have deeply hostile practices when it comes to women, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, and many others, are not simply going to give up Islam. In order to get men in those countries to respect women's rights, it is much easier to argue that women's rights are compatible with Islam. It is easier to change one element of the culture, to favor equality for women, than to try and discard the entire culture.

And thirdly, as I have said, there are women who are genuine feminists and also genuinely Muslim. If Islam was inherently anti-feminist, this would be rather impossible. The very existence of women like Malala, and Nahida, proves that Islam and feminism can coexist. Who is Richard Dawkins, or who are we, as a forum full of (mostly) white men, to tell Islamic women feminists that their faith is false, or that they are wrong? It isn't feminist for men to define feminism for women, or for men to tell women that they aren't true or "hard line" enough in their religion. That's anti-feminism. What's feminist is to support the positions of actual feminists who talk about their religion. What's feminist to respect women who choose religion.

The implication in this thread is that women who convert to Islam are somehow messed up in the head, because Islam doesn't respect women. But the irony is, that this implication is itself what is disrespecting these women, because we assume that by converting to Islam, they also chose to sign up for inequality and abuse, when that is not necessarily the case.
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Storebought
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« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2015, 07:17:06 PM »

Are there not surveys or documentaries on why western women choose to convert to "backwards" Islam? One could always simply ask them why they chose that religion over the one, if any, they were born into.

But beyond that, I can see why Islam in particular would appeal to women who were conflicted by western demands for ever-present female sexual desirability (woe to the women wearing hoodies and sweatpants in public) combined with sometimes-dubious notions of gender equality that themselves spring from sexism (magazine profiles on women in business tend to illustrate this).

Gender roles are clearly defined in Islam, but evidently in a way these women accept, and not in the stereotyped cowering-women-wearing-bags way that western people imagine.
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