IDS 2: Stop PMing Me Act
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2015, 12:31:53 AM »

     Eh, do it at your own risk. I remember when Jake went and joined the JCP because he was tired of being pestered by Hamilton PMing him.
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2015, 06:29:40 AM »
« Edited: March 26, 2015, 07:04:54 AM by X »

Furthermore, across Atlasia we've seen a trend toward PM-exclusive campaigns.  In these races, we never know what sorts of attacks and empty promises are made to voters behind the scenes and there is almost literally no transparency because a candidate has decided that all they need to win is to pander to the voters as individuals with a bunch of one-on-one PMs.  

Hilarious to see you of all people suddenly concerned about this! Would you kindly point me to your campaign HQ, Mr. Multi-term "Southron" Legislator?

I actually only sent two short campaign PMs this past campaign.  At yes, the final straw came recently, what's your point?  The biggest issue is sending unwanted campaign PMs.

As a True Southron™ and resident in the NE, I will be more than willing to send out PMs to anyone if this law is passed (and will proactively send all sorts of random PMs to anyone who joins this list). Call me Adam Tubman, for I will keep the flow of freedom going (in a general north-south direction)!

I wonder if there is an in-game legal mechanism for extraditing a yankee like yourself the South for trial.  In any event, if you're this fiercely opposed the bill then surely it can't be all bad.


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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2015, 11:01:50 PM »

I mean, you can make a voluntary list if you want, but passing this bill would be foolish. As I said, it has been tried and repealed and it's difficult to limit speech like this. If someone asks you to stop PMing, listen to them, but punishing someone for sending a PM might not be legal.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2015, 11:16:54 PM »

Furthermore, across Atlasia we've seen a trend toward PM-exclusive campaigns.  In these races, we never know what sorts of attacks and empty promises are made to voters behind the scenes and there is almost literally no transparency because a candidate has decided that all they need to win is to pander to the voters as individuals with a bunch of one-on-one PMs.  

Hilarious to see you of all people suddenly concerned about this! Would you kindly point me to your campaign HQ, Mr. Multi-term "Southron" Legislator?

I actually only sent two short campaign PMs this past campaign.  At yes, the final straw came recently, what's your point?  The biggest issue is sending unwanted campaign PMs.

My point is that you're a notorious PM fiend and you've managed to win two elections in the South thus far without so much as opening a campaign thread to campaign publicly. So, did you win based solely on your party carrying you or by running an exclusively private campaign? Either way, tsk tsk, hypocrite, bad for the game, etc etc.

As a True Southron™ and resident in the NE, I will be more than willing to send out PMs to anyone if this law is passed (and will proactively send all sorts of random PMs to anyone who joins this list). Call me Adam Tubman, for I will keep the flow of freedom going (in a general north-south direction)!

I wonder if there is an in-game legal mechanism for extraditing a yankee like yourself the South for trial.  In any event, if you're this fiercely opposed the bill then surely it can't be all bad.

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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2015, 06:40:41 AM »
« Edited: March 27, 2015, 06:48:46 AM by X »

Furthermore, across Atlasia we've seen a trend toward PM-exclusive campaigns.  In these races, we never know what sorts of attacks and empty promises are made to voters behind the scenes and there is almost literally no transparency because a candidate has decided that all they need to win is to pander to the voters as individuals with a bunch of one-on-one PMs.  

Hilarious to see you of all people suddenly concerned about this! Would you kindly point me to your campaign HQ, Mr. Multi-term "Southron" Legislator?

I actually only sent two short campaign PMs this past campaign.  At yes, the final straw came recently, what's your point?  The biggest issue is sending unwanted campaign PMs.

My point is that you're a notorious PM fiend and you've managed to win two elections in the South thus far without so much as opening a campaign thread to campaign publicly. So, did you win based solely on your party carrying you or by running an exclusively private campaign? Either way, tsk tsk, hypocrite, bad for the game, etc etc.

As a True Southron™ and resident in the NE, I will be more than willing to send out PMs to anyone if this law is passed (and will proactively send all sorts of random PMs to anyone who joins this list). Call me Adam Tubman, for I will keep the flow of freedom going (in a general north-south direction)!

I wonder if there is an in-game legal mechanism for extraditing a yankee like yourself the South for trial.  In any event, if you're this fiercely opposed the bill then surely it can't be all bad.



So because you lack anything remotely resembling a legitimate argument, you're gonna wage a smear campaign?  You've been away too long, Senator.  The People of the South are smart enough to see through your baseless lies and personal attacks.  And to answer your question, I won due to the strength of my record as an independent-minded champion of The People.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2015, 02:52:44 PM »

I mean, you can make a voluntary list if you want, but passing this bill would be foolish. As I said, it has been tried and repealed and it's difficult to limit speech like this. If someone asks you to stop PMing, listen to them, but punishing someone for sending a PM might not be legal.

     That's what I am getting at. One person I know pondered putting it in his sig, but that wouldn't help me since I have had sigs turned off for years. I think that having a voluntary list would be helpful for the sake of providing an easy reference of who doesn't want to receive PMs. If anyone is unscrupulous about it and messages people on the list, we can all take that into account in terms of supporting their future political endeavors.
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2015, 04:27:03 PM »

I mean, you can make a voluntary list if you want, but passing this bill would be foolish. As I said, it has been tried and repealed and it's difficult to limit speech like this. If someone asks you to stop PMing, listen to them, but punishing someone for sending a PM might not be legal.

     That's what I am getting at. One person I know pondered putting it in his sig, but that wouldn't help me since I have had sigs turned off for years. I think that having a voluntary list would be helpful for the sake of providing an easy reference of who doesn't want to receive PMs. If anyone is unscrupulous about it and messages people on the list, we can all take that into account in terms of supporting their future political endeavors.

The problem is that people who get elected due to strategic registration campaigns and zombie hordes or who aren't on the ballot in a given election won't respect the list without an enforcement mechanism.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2015, 10:14:30 PM »

I mean, you can make a voluntary list if you want, but passing this bill would be foolish. As I said, it has been tried and repealed and it's difficult to limit speech like this. If someone asks you to stop PMing, listen to them, but punishing someone for sending a PM might not be legal.

     That's what I am getting at. One person I know pondered putting it in his sig, but that wouldn't help me since I have had sigs turned off for years. I think that having a voluntary list would be helpful for the sake of providing an easy reference of who doesn't want to receive PMs. If anyone is unscrupulous about it and messages people on the list, we can all take that into account in terms of supporting their future political endeavors.

The problem is that people who get elected due to strategic registration campaigns and zombie hordes or who aren't on the ballot in a given election won't respect the list without an enforcement mechanism.

     But anyone who wants to circumvent it can enlist a buddy in another region to do so. It is a good idea, but I fear that legal enforcement is logistically impossible.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2015, 10:51:10 PM »

Lord, y'all are being way too nice about this.

IT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA,
IT'LL NEVER WORK,
IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL BY PRECEDENT,
AND YOUR JUSTIFICATION FOR IT MAKES YOU A BIG OL' HYPOCRITE,
SO JUST STAHP
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2015, 11:34:22 PM »

Getting elected with zombies or using PM smear campaigns is bad but it's legal, like many bad things in the world. We simply can't legally outlaw those things.

Everyone has the right to PM who they'd like. All those who don't want them can do is ask not to get PM'd. We can't legally forbid someone to do talk to another person if they aren't harrassing or otherwise harming them.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2015, 11:35:58 PM »

Getting elected with zombies or using PM smear campaigns is bad but it's legal, like many bad things in the world. We simply can't legally outlaw those things.

Everyone has the right to PM who they'd like. All those who don't want them can do is ask not to get PM'd. We can't legally forbid someone to do talk to another person if they aren't harrassing or otherwise harming them.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2015, 11:36:52 PM »

Getting elected with zombies or using PM smear campaigns is bad but it's legal, like many bad things in the world. We simply can't legally outlaw those things.

Everyone has the right to PM who they'd like. All those who don't want them can do is ask not to get PM'd. We can't legally forbid someone to do talk to another person if they aren't harrassing or otherwise harming them.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2015, 11:37:27 PM »

Getting elected with zombies or using PM smear campaigns is bad but it's legal, like many bad things in the world. We simply can't legally outlaw those things.

Everyone has the right to PM who they'd like. All those who don't want them can do is ask not to get PM'd. We can't legally forbid someone to do talk to another person if they aren't harrassing or otherwise harming them.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2015, 02:46:53 AM »

Are we copying legislative posts in triplicate now or did you downgrade to dial up Duke? Wink



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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2015, 08:48:01 AM »
« Edited: March 29, 2015, 12:41:43 PM by X »

Lord, y'all are being way too nice about this.

IT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA,
IT'LL NEVER WORK,
IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL BY PRECEDENT,
AND YOUR JUSTIFICATION FOR IT MAKES YOU A BIG OL' HYPOCRITE,
SO JUST STAHP

It doesn't make me a hypocrite at all since I'm only trying to ban unwanted campaign PMs, but I can't say I expect you to suddenly start caring about facts now.  Btw, you're really not in a position to be calling anyone else a hypocrite.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2015, 08:50:07 PM »

Furthermore, across Atlasia we've seen a trend toward PM-exclusive campaigns.  In these races, we never know what sorts of attacks and empty promises are made to voters behind the scenes and there is almost literally no transparency because a candidate has decided that all they need to win is to pander to the voters as individuals with a bunch of one-on-one PMs.  

My point is that you're a notorious PM fiend and you've managed to win two elections in the South thus far without so much as opening a campaign thread to campaign publicly. So, did you win based solely on your party carrying you or by running an exclusively private campaign? Either way, tsk tsk, hypocrite, bad for the game, etc etc.

I actually only sent two short campaign PMs this past campaign.  At yes, the final straw came recently, what's your point?  The biggest issue is sending unwanted campaign PMs.

You're a hypocrite. And nobody believes you only sent "two short campaign PMs this past campaign" for your own candidacy; hell, you sent more than that campaigning against me in the at-large Senate special! You justified this bill in part because people supposedly are running behind-the-scenes campaigns in the South, yet you didn't run a public campaign yourself.

If we take you at your (latest) word, then you won because you did nothing and solely because of your name and party affiliation. Roughly 24 hours earlier, however, you did admit to sending PMs. So either:

  • you lied about sending PMs (as in, you actually didn't send them), and won because of your name and party affiliation, or
  • you lied about winning because of name and party affiliation, and did in fact send the PMs you admitted to sending (which would constitute the entirety of your campaign)

Either way, how shameful!

Also, your whole shtick of "I know you are but what am I!" is really old. I'm using your own words against you; you're making up accusations out of thin air and windjamming.
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« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2015, 09:36:39 PM »

Hagrid just been kicked to the curb. Its now the Love Tales of Griffin and X. Tongue

Whilst we are on this subject of PMing, I will give one of my annoying history lessons. I will say that I have sent my fair share of PMs, but I also had a public campaign ever time. In 2010, I won >80% of the vote in all three elections for DS/IDS Regional Senator that year. However, and this is easy to glose over with all the RPP-JCL hegemony omg omg omg Dissolution save us bs, but in February I had just six RPPers in the region and by June we had just four (DWTL made it five,  but hadn't posted in seven months. It was just Duke, myself, Tb75 and Brandonh) whilst the Populares had nine. Things had improved by October (PiT rejoined and both Devilman and Giovanni moved to the region), but the Populares still outnumbered us by 2 and yet I beat an RPPer turned Populares SPC who I had trailed in the polls (sound familiar) 16 to 3 (one of whom was Brandonh). The way I did it was by aggressive PM outreach to JCPers (who even endorsed me in the last election and actually had votes enough for that to matter in the region Tongue), and even Populares members. Hell even Jbrase voted for me I think in that election and I was far less libertarian then than I am now. Of course Jbrase knew that I was the most consistent defender of the Populares post Hamilton in the RPP and at that time we wanted to maintain the alliance against the left in other regions (we were within one vote in the NE and ME of sweeping three regions) and nationally (AndrewX24ever), knocking me out would have been counterproductive.

It is very easy to beneficit by doing it all by PM. You don't have to be consistent, you can be Richard Nixon, everything to everybody. You can talk like a liberal in the Bay Are and an unreconstructed Southerner in Appalachia. I never lied to anyone and most everything discussed issue wise centered around stuff that was also a feature in the campaign. And yes, I have had someone complain about my PMs, though that was sent for the sake of the Presidential elections not for myself and was from someone registered in another region.
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2015, 11:54:15 AM »
« Edited: March 30, 2015, 11:55:52 AM by X »

Furthermore, across Atlasia we've seen a trend toward PM-exclusive campaigns.  In these races, we never know what sorts of attacks and empty promises are made to voters behind the scenes and there is almost literally no transparency because a candidate has decided that all they need to win is to pander to the voters as individuals with a bunch of one-on-one PMs.  

My point is that you're a notorious PM fiend and you've managed to win two elections in the South thus far without so much as opening a campaign thread to campaign publicly. So, did you win based solely on your party carrying you or by running an exclusively private campaign? Either way, tsk tsk, hypocrite, bad for the game, etc etc.

I actually only sent two short campaign PMs this past campaign.  At yes, the final straw came recently, what's your point?  The biggest issue is sending unwanted campaign PMs.

You're a hypocrite. And nobody believes you only sent "two short campaign PMs this past campaign" for your own candidacy; hell, you sent more than that campaigning against me in the at-large Senate special! You justified this bill in part because people supposedly are running behind-the-scenes campaigns in the South, yet you didn't run a public campaign yourself.

If we take you at your (latest) word, then you won because you did nothing and solely because of your name and party affiliation. Roughly 24 hours earlier, however, you did admit to sending PMs. So either:

  • you lied about sending PMs (as in, you actually didn't send them), and won because of your name and party affiliation, or
  • you lied about winning because of name and party affiliation, and did in fact send the PMs you admitted to sending (which would constitute the entirety of your campaign)

Either way, how shameful!

Also, your whole shtick of "I know you are but what am I!" is really old. I'm using your own words against you; you're making up accusations out of thin air and windjamming.

Roll Eyes

As I said earlier, I won on the strength of my record as an independent-minded champion of The People.  That doesn't mean just party ID or just name ID.  I don't really care whether you believe me or not about how many PMs I sent, Senator.  The fact is that I did only send two short PMs this past campaign asking for anyone to vote for me.  I'd have liked to have been able to wage a more active campaign and if someone who has actually run one wants to criticize me for that, fair enough.  However, real life issues take precedence for me over fantasyland campaigns.  I am grateful that the voters of the South had enough confidence in me based on my record to re-elect me all the same (and with support from members of multiple parties, no less).  

For the benefit of others who may read this, I will note that yes, I did send far more PMs (never to anyone who requested that I not do so) for a race in which I was not on the ballot than one in which I was.  The fact is that I cared more about the outcome of the At-Large Senate special election than the Southern Assembly race.  While I hoped to win the latter, at the end of the day I was confident that even if I lost, and despite my ideological differences with some of these folks, the South would still be in good hands if the Legislature consisted of Duke, PiT, and SMilo (to say nothing of Governor Flo who has done an excellent job).  Unlike you, I'm not one of those "guys, I have a career in Atlasia!!!" people.  Win or lose, it's just a game and it's hard to get too stirred up about the possibility of losing when you're facing such competent and respectable opponents.

The Senate race, OTOH, was not exclusively a race between folks who would do a good job if elected (putting aside the considerable ideological differences I had with all of the major candidates).  I had some concerns about Foucaulf and he certainly made some troubling mistakes during the campaign (most notably the gaffe about wanting people who voted against him not to vote), but I'm pretty confident he'd at least have been an active and productive Senator had he been elected (plus his campaign had more substance to it than that of anyone else who ran).  The only other candidate with a real chance of winning was Griffin.  I was almost certain that if elected, Griffin would be a rather unproductive Senator with far more interest in hyperbolic bomb-throwing than crafting serious legislation and engaging in substantive debate.  As a result, I cared more about the outcome of that race than my most recent one and guess what?  Since Griffin won, he's proven me right.  One need only look to Senator Griffin's "contributions" to the debate over the energy bill 2.0 police bill to see this.

Btw, you offered literally no evidence whatsoever in your post that I lied.  I guess that makes sense, since I didn't lie about anything.  I was re-elected because of my record and the fact that I've apparently earned the trust of a number of folks in the South after all the time I've spent fighting for The People, not because of the two short campaign PMs I sent (IIRC, at least one of the two individuals I PMed didn't even first preference me Tongue ).

I do find it funny that you might actually think I'm making up accusations against you out of thin-air (if so, then that's some serious denial you've got going on).  You constantly give your critics so much ammunition (and at times even seem to take a certain pride in doing so) that I can't really imagine why anyone would ever feel the need to resort to making up an attack against you, even if they did dabble in smear campaigns (which I never have).
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2015, 03:15:54 PM »

     Wow, I leave for a day and a half and this place implodes.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2015, 03:20:50 PM »

Be that as it may, this bill isn't constitutional. As long as we have freedom of speech, PM campaigns, just as IRC, will continue. You can't limit people's freedom of speech unless there is a strong reason to do so, and just because it hurts someone's feelings isn't good enough.

If someone is harassing someone else via PM, that is an issue for Dave to take care of.
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« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2015, 08:46:09 PM »
« Edited: March 31, 2015, 02:18:13 AM by Speaker PiT »

     Forget my previous amendment, here is a new one. It should take care of any legality issues and tighten up wording in a few places.

The Stop PMing Me Act

1. Effective immediately upon the passage of this bill, the government of the South shall establish a Do Not PM list. 

2. Any voters living in the IDS who does not wish to receive campaign PMs may add themselves to the Do Not PM List by signing their username in the list's thread. 

3. Any voters whose names have been added to the list may should not be sent a sample ballot, encouraged to vote for a specific candidate by either a candidate or a candidate's supporters via PM, or sent a PM reminding them to vote in any Gubernatorial, regional legislative, or regional Senate election.

4. The one exception to section three is if the individual who sent the campaign PM or sample ballot can prove with PMs that he did so purely at the direct request of the specific voter who filed a complaint against him and limited his campaign-related PM to the subject the voter PMed him about.  For example, a candidate responding to a voter's unprompted request for information about his position on abortion would not be in violation of section three if he send a PM in response that laid out his views on abortion.  However, said candidate would be violating section three if he sent an unprompted abortion-related pitch to a voter on the Do Not PM list or if he sent a sample ballot in addition to answering the voter's question about his abortion views. 

5. No voters on the Do Not PM List may send campaign-related PMs, sample ballots, etc while on the list.


6. 4. Anyone wishing to be removed from the Do Not PM List may have their name removed by making a post in the list thread requesting that their name be taken of the Do Not PM List.  However, no voter may add or remove himself from the Do Not PM List at any point during either last 48 hours before the voting booth opens in a Southern Gubernatorial, regional legislative, or regional Senate election or while the actual voting in one of the aforementioned types of elections is underway in this region.

7. 5. Any voter adding his name during the period described in section six four shall not be recognized as having added his name to the Do Not PM List until the officially designated close of the election

8. Any voter who is convicted of removing his name from the Do Not PM List during the aforementioned period shall receive a minimum sentence a ban on voting in the following regional election.

9. Anyone convicted of violating section three of this law once shall receive a minimum sentence of a six month ban on voting in regional elections or holding regional office (including, but not limited to regional Senate).  A second conviction will lead to the same penalty, as well as a year-long ban on appearing on any ballot in the region in any election for any office.
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« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2015, 09:47:15 PM »


tl;dr - I'm sure it's full of a bunch of BS, baseless attacks, posturing and classic X triangulation/"please everyone, like me!", anyway

Why don't you guys just push this to vote, shoot it down and be done with it? It's quite the trainwreck to watch...and any outcome will inevitably just be a formalized recommendation.
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« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2015, 01:56:22 AM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRAhTY3Dwl0

I wonder if there is an in-game legal mechanism for extraditing a yankee like yourself the South for trial.  In any event, if you're this fiercely opposed the bill then surely it can't be all bad.

If Griffin counts as a Yankee, then I am Canadian and Hagrid is from the Greenland.
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« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2015, 09:03:27 AM »

     Forget my previous amendment, here is a new one. It should take care of any legality issues and tighten up wording in a few places.

The Stop PMing Me Act

1. Effective immediately upon the passage of this bill, the government of the South shall establish a Do Not PM list. 

2. Any voters living in the IDS who does not wish to receive campaign PMs may add themselves to the Do Not PM List by signing their username in the list's thread. 

3. Any voters whose names have been added to the list may should not be sent a sample ballot, encouraged to vote for a specific candidate by either a candidate or a candidate's supporters via PM, or sent a PM reminding them to vote in any Gubernatorial, regional legislative, or regional Senate election.

4. The one exception to section three is if the individual who sent the campaign PM or sample ballot can prove with PMs that he did so purely at the direct request of the specific voter who filed a complaint against him and limited his campaign-related PM to the subject the voter PMed him about.  For example, a candidate responding to a voter's unprompted request for information about his position on abortion would not be in violation of section three if he send a PM in response that laid out his views on abortion.  However, said candidate would be violating section three if he sent an unprompted abortion-related pitch to a voter on the Do Not PM list or if he sent a sample ballot in addition to answering the voter's question about his abortion views. 

5. No voters on the Do Not PM List may send campaign-related PMs, sample ballots, etc while on the list.


6. 4. Anyone wishing to be removed from the Do Not PM List may have their name removed by making a post in the list thread requesting that their name be taken of the Do Not PM List.  However, no voter may add or remove himself from the Do Not PM List at any point during either last 48 hours before the voting booth opens in a Southern Gubernatorial, regional legislative, or regional Senate election or while the actual voting in one of the aforementioned types of elections is underway in this region.

7. 5. Any voter adding his name during the period described in section six four shall not be recognized as having added his name to the Do Not PM List until the officially designated close of the election

8. Any voter who is convicted of removing his name from the Do Not PM List during the aforementioned period shall receive a minimum sentence a ban on voting in the following regional election.

9. Anyone convicted of violating section three of this law once shall receive a minimum sentence of a six month ban on voting in regional elections or holding regional office (including, but not limited to regional Senate).  A second conviction will lead to the same penalty, as well as a year-long ban on appearing on any ballot in the region in any election for any office.


While I'd like to see something with strong enforcement mechanisms, this may be as good as it'll get for now.  This modified version of the bill has my support, Speaker PiT.
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Associate Justice PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
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« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2015, 10:20:18 PM »
« Edited: April 01, 2015, 02:46:05 AM by Speaker PiT »

     My mistake on what I had earlier. Since the sponsor of the bill has assented to the amendment, I'll allow 24 hours for objections. Otherwise the amendment is adopted.
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