Should Germany pay Greece reparations for World War II?

[traininthedistance]

You can't have a currency union without transfers to the poorer parts of the union– it's baked into the very definition of the thing.  And, as Madeleine said, austerity just doesn't work, even on its own terms.

So, yes, "Germany" needs to give Greece money.  There's no other way forward out of this mess.

But framing it as "reparations for WWII" is whackadoo and needlessly inflammatory. No, Germany shouldn't give Greece money for that.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

You can't have a currency union without transfers to the poorer parts of the union– it's baked into the very definition of the thing.

I don't understand where you get this idea. A currency union is in essence a matter of facilitating trade by having the same currency for the purpose of a common market.  There's no definitional reason why it must involve wealth transfers from one political unit to another.

[politicus]

So, yes, "Germany" needs to give Greece money.  There's no other way forward out of this mess.

But framing it as "reparations for WWII" is whackadoo and needlessly inflammatory. No, Germany shouldn't give Greece money for that.

Well, it is no longer just Die Linke that thinks Greece has the right to some compensation from Germany, politicians from the Greens and SPD are on the same track.

SPD deputy chairman Ralf Stegner, who is also Prime Minister of Schleswig-Holstein to Spiegel Online:

"We must not link the compensation claims to the current debate on the euro crisis. But apart from that, I believe that we must conclude the discussion on compensation claims. It is part of the way we treat our own history. "

Greece has not yet officially made requirements, but a Greek parliamentary committee last week issued a preliminary report, which picks up on the various pending cases from World War II. And considering confiscating German state property in Greece. The Committee was set up by the outgoing Greek government and the conclusions fit the current government's policy to implement compensation and avenge honour.

Distomo massacre

It particularly focus on the case of the survivors of a massacre in the village of Distomo, where 218 men, women and children were brutally murdered by an SS division in June 1944 and says the survivors in this case should get compensation.

German author Eberhard Rondholz:

"In Distomo there was a regular culling of especially the elderly, women and children. It was an orgy of violence in retaliation for the killing of some German soldiers. The Distomo massacre is not forgotten. And no one has ever been vindicated in the action"

Perpetrators from the responsible SS-division has never been apprehended.

Survivors, Argyris Sfountouris, four years old then and lost both playmates and family - has since filed a lawsuit against Germany on compensation to the bereaved for the amount of 20 million Euro and has in recent decades been through several German courts with his case. And has been rejected every time.

After German reunification, he contacted the then German ambassador to Greece to inquire about possible compensation. He was told that the massacre was a part of the necessary warfare.

In addition to the Distomo massacre  the Greek claim is in particular to replace 476 million German Reichsmark withdrawn from an account in the Bank of Greece to fund the occupation.

The Greek claim

Complicated stuff. Part of the German forced payments were partially repaid during the war. Germany also added to the country's gold reserves, and World War II was replaced by the Greek civil war which has muddled the picture.

In 1960, Greece was paid a lump sum of 115 million German Marks in reparations, but this does not cover the actual loss.

So the question is how to translate it all to the 2015 figures. Greece has reached an amount of about 11 billion euro with interest.

At hearings last week in th Greek parliament it emerged that Greece already in 1995 had plans to seize German properties, such as the Goethe Institute in Athens. But the Minister of Justice never signed the order. The current Justice Minister Nikos Paraskevopoulos has said that he may  sign, but only if Tsipras ask him to.

Greece approached Germany in 1995 with a letter that it did not want to disregard the previous claims and that it wished to negotiate. This has since been consistently refuted.

Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäubles spokesman Martin Jäger said in January that because it is almost 70 years since the war ended, any claim is dated. He pointed to Germany as late as in 2010 claimed to have completed all balances around reparations.

But Professor of International Law at the University of Bremen Andreas Fischer-Lescano believe that German governments have deliberately tried to push valid claims from countries like Greece, so that there is not created an example that can give other countries a taste of how too to demand compensation.

(quotes translated from various Danish newspaper articles on the  subject)

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Because it worked out so well to have Germany pay reparations for the other world war.

[politicus]

Because it worked out so well to have Germany pay reparations for the other world war.

Totally different scenario. Germany has long since recovered from the war and has a strong economy. They should as a minimum pay the last remaining survivors of war crimes and repay money stolen from national banks in occupied countries.

[Cassius]

This claim is, of course, coming from the country that committed numerous and well-documented atrocities during its war with Turkey in the 1920's. Have the Greeks paid any reparations to the people of Anatolia?

[Tender Branson]

Are you living in an alternate reality? This forum is full of insane austericrats.

Well, I still have some hope left that you will once join the good side too, once you start earning your own money - instead of simply spending the money from your parents to finance your studies etc. ...

Spoken like a true US Republican. "Those damn lib'ruls only care about helping the poor because they're lazy moochers, but once they begin working their ass off they'll become good upstanding fiscal conservatives like us!"

Not spoken like a true Republican, but more like someone with common sense. If you want to live your life like the Greeks, go ahead. And end up broke and a financial slave to others. But that's not what I want to do. Saving is awesome and that's how I managed my money since forever and now have a good surplus. If I managed it like the Greeks, I'd live under a bridge now. And btw, this policy is not really exclusively "Republican". Even Green parties, like the Baden-Württemberg ones, are in favor of fiscal conservatism.

This claim is, of course, coming from the country that committed numerous and well-documented atrocities during its war with Turkey in the 1920's. Have the Greeks paid any reparations to the people of Anatolia?

Correct. Or did they pay reparations yet for Alexander the Great's crusades into Persia ? The fact is that this is only an issue now that the Greeks are going bankrupt. If the roles were reversed, with Greece being economically well off and Germany being broke - the Greeks wouldn't bring these reparations up.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Are you living in an alternate reality? This forum is full of insane austericrats.

Well, I still have some hope left that you will once join the good side too, once you start earning your own money - instead of simply spending the money from your parents to finance your studies etc. ...

Spoken like a true US Republican. "Those damn lib'ruls only care about helping the poor because they're lazy moochers, but once they begin working their ass off they'll become good upstanding fiscal conservatives like us!"

Not spoken like a true Republican, but more like someone with common sense. If you want to live your life like the Greeks, go ahead. And end up broke and a financial slave to others. But that's not what I want to do. Saving is awesome and that's how I managed my money since forever and now have a good surplus. If I managed it like the Greeks, I'd live under a bridge now. And btw, this policy is not really exclusively "Republican". Even Green parties, like the Baden-Württemberg ones, are in favor of fiscal conservatism.

Of course it's easy to be in favor of "fiscal conservatism" when you can balance your budget without putting millions of people in poverty and cutting access to basic services. I'm sure the Greeks who have lost their employment, income, home and healthcare are very happy to know you are doing fine.

[politicus]

This claim is, of course, coming from the country that committed numerous and well-documented atrocities during its war with Turkey in the 1920's. Have the Greeks paid any reparations to the people of Anatolia?

Turks committed an equal amount of atrocities towards Greeks, so that would cancel each other out and compensation should have been paid by the two states to their own + no survivors alive. Not a relevant parallel.

And the Greeks did not steal funds from the Turkish national bank, which is the biggest part of the claim.

[politicus]

Are you living in an alternate reality? This forum is full of insane austericrats.

Well, I still have some hope left that you will once join the good side too, once you start earning your own money - instead of simply spending the money from your parents to finance your studies etc. ...

Spoken like a true US Republican. "Those damn lib'ruls only care about helping the poor because they're lazy moochers, but once they begin working their ass off they'll become good upstanding fiscal conservatives like us!"

Not spoken like a true Republican, but more like someone with common sense. If you want to live your life like the Greeks, go ahead. And end up broke and a financial slave to others. But that's not what I want to do. Saving is awesome and that's how I managed my money since forever and now have a good surplus. If I managed it like the Greeks, I'd live under a bridge now. And btw, this policy is not really exclusively "Republican". Even Green parties, like the Baden-Württemberg ones, are in favor of fiscal conservatism.

This claim is, of course, coming from the country that committed numerous and well-documented atrocities during its war with Turkey in the 1920's. Have the Greeks paid any reparations to the people of Anatolia?

Correct. Or did they pay reparations yet for Alexander the Great's crusades into Persia ? The fact is that this is only an issue now that the Greeks are going bankrupt. If the roles were reversed, with Greece being economically well off and Germany being broke - the Greeks wouldn't bring these reparations up.

As mentioned in my post Greece did bring up the claim in 1995, and even if what you wrote was true it does not influence the validity of the claim.

Also, WW2 massacres are not "ancient history" for everybody, there are still survivors and there are children of survivors alive who suffered through their childhood from the effect traumas had on their parents. So young internet geeks comparing it to Alexander the Great etc. is stupid and cynical.

[Velasco]

Not spoken like a true Republican, but more like someone with common sense. If you want to live your life like the Greeks, go ahead. And end up broke and a financial slave to others. But that's not what I want to do. Saving is awesome and that's how I managed my money since forever and now have a good surplus. If I managed it like the Greeks, I'd live under a bridge now. And btw, this policy is not really exclusively "Republican". Even Green parties, like the Baden-Württemberg ones, are in favor of fiscal conservatism.

See Branson, there's no doubt about the incompetence of the previous Greek governments (PASOK and ND) but this comment is really insulting for those Greek citizens suffering the consequences of their bad management and the criminal (there's no other word to describe it) diktat from Germany and the Troika. At this point, it doesn't surprise me the terrible lack of empathy of well-meaning fiscal conservatives like you. Probably you are only a product of the environment, a victim of indoctrination. However, calm down.

[Tender Branson]

Not spoken like a true Republican, but more like someone with common sense. If you want to live your life like the Greeks, go ahead. And end up broke and a financial slave to others. But that's not what I want to do. Saving is awesome and that's how I managed my money since forever and now have a good surplus. If I managed it like the Greeks, I'd live under a bridge now. And btw, this policy is not really exclusively "Republican". Even Green parties, like the Baden-Württemberg ones, are in favor of fiscal conservatism.

See Branson, there's no doubt about the incompetence of the previous Greek governments (PASOK and ND) but this comment is really insulting for those Greek citizens suffering the consequences of their bad management and the criminal (there's no other word to describe it) diktat from Germany and the Troika. At this point, it doesn't surprise me the terrible lack of empathy of well-meaning fiscal conservatives like you. Probably you are only a product of the environment, a victim of indoctrination. However, calm down.

It was not meant as an insult or as a comparison with the people of Greece who have fallen into actual poverty, but more as an attack on the way the previous governments handled fiscal matters that eventually led to their doom (like you said). The poor people now are only insofar to blame as they tolerated and repeatedly elected these incompetent crooks, while blaming and hating on the Germans, instead of embracing the things that the Germans (and Swiss and Swedes and Danes etc. etc.) did right when it comes to economic/fiscal policies.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Not spoken like a true Republican, but more like someone with common sense. If you want to live your life like the Greeks, go ahead. And end up broke and a financial slave to others. But that's not what I want to do. Saving is awesome and that's how I managed my money since forever and now have a good surplus. If I managed it like the Greeks, I'd live under a bridge now. And btw, this policy is not really exclusively "Republican". Even Green parties, like the Baden-Württemberg ones, are in favor of fiscal conservatism.

See Branson, there's no doubt about the incompetence of the previous Greek governments (PASOK and ND) but this comment is really insulting for those Greek citizens suffering the consequences of their bad management and the criminal (there's no other word to describe it) diktat from Germany and the Troika. At this point, it doesn't surprise me the terrible lack of empathy of well-meaning fiscal conservatives like you. Probably you are only a product of the environment, a victim of indoctrination. However, calm down.

It was not meant as an insult or as a comparison with the people of Greece who have fallen into actual poverty, but more as an attack on the way the previous governments handled fiscal matters that eventually led to their doom (like you said). The poor people now are only insofar to blame as they tolerated and repeatedly elected these incompetent crooks, while blaming and hating on the Germans, instead of embracing the things that the Germans (and Swiss and Swedes and Danes etc. etc.) did right when it comes to economic/fiscal policies.

The problem is that Germans and other Europeans haven't pressured Greek governments to enact policies similar to theirs. Quite the opposite. These countries were successful, not because of austerity, but because they made the investments in the infrastructure and social welfare necessary to sustain the economy. And have efficient tax systems. The former requires time and money, and the latter is much more likely with a Syriza government than it was with the "fiscal conservatives" previously in power.

[Velasco]

It was not meant as an insult or as a comparison with the people of Greece who have fallen into actual poverty, but more as an attack on the way the previous governments handled fiscal matters that eventually led to their doom (like you said). The poor people now are only insofar to blame as they tolerated and repeatedly elected these incompetent crooks, while blaming and hating on the Germans, instead of embracing the things that the Germans (and Swiss and Swedes and Danes etc. etc.) did right when it comes to economic/fiscal policies.

You have no idea of how irritating such moralistic sermons must be for the Greeks whom actually are dealing with the present devastation. Sure, it'd be good changing the way in which incompetent crooks used to run the country. However, how you can you expect an ill patient to recover while you have both hands on his (or her) throat? At the end of the day, you are totally incapable of walking in another person's shoes. That human feeling called empathy.

[Tender Branson]

It was not meant as an insult or as a comparison with the people of Greece who have fallen into actual poverty, but more as an attack on the way the previous governments handled fiscal matters that eventually led to their doom (like you said). The poor people now are only insofar to blame as they tolerated and repeatedly elected these incompetent crooks, while blaming and hating on the Germans, instead of embracing the things that the Germans (and Swiss and Swedes and Danes etc. etc.) did right when it comes to economic/fiscal policies.

You have no idea of how irritating such moralistic sermons must be for the Greeks whom actually are dealing with the present devastation. Sure, it'd be good changing the way in which incompetent crooks used to run the country. However, how you can you expect an ill patient to recover while you have both hands on his (or her) throat? At the end of the day, you are totally incapable of walking in another person's shoes. That human feeling called empathy.

Yeah, empathy is fine but there are certain diseases for which you need to apply the thumbscrews and chemotherapy. Otherwise the patient is dead. The same thing goes for the Greek political crooks and tax evaders. If you do not crack down hard on them and show them how it's done, they will never change and learn. Even if you let Greece go bankrupt and relieve them of all debt, they will be at 200% debt levels again within a few decades and the same sh*t is here again.

[Simfan34]

As for Antonio's suggestion, as most Greek debt is in French banks, I'm sure it's not just pure opportunism.

Does not follow.

Well I'm sure it's a complete coincidence that your suggestion will result in German tax money being transfered to French bankers.

I don't get it. Why should writing off the debt owed by Greece toward French banks be a good thing for said French banks and a bad thing for Germany?

Because Germany don't owe most of the Greek debt, they're only the third largest Greek creditor (after France and UK). So what you really suggest is Germany taking over the Greek debt.

I don't serious think you knew this. But I think you should think about it, everytime a French media suggest that the Germans should cover the Greek debt. What they really say are; "save our banks".

BTW I found a nice BBC graph from 2012

Ha! Here I was thinking I was informed and I had no idea this was the case.

[Tender Branson]

Also, the question in the OP is wrong. It should read:

"Should Germany pay Greece more reparations for World War II?"

The title as it is implies that Germany has not paid anything to Greece so far ...

[Velasco]

Yeah, empathy is fine but there are certain diseases for which you need to apply the thumbscrews and chemotherapy. Otherwise the patient is dead. The same thing goes for the Greek political crooks and tax evaders. If you do not crack down hard on them and show them how it's done, they will never change and learn. Even if you let Greece go bankrupt and relieve them of all debt, they will be at 200% debt levels again within a few decades and the same sh*t is here again.

I think your metaphor can be improved. Austerity is more similar to bloodletting: inefficient, outdated and, in extreme cases, mortal. You are a lost case.

[Tender Branson]

Yeah, empathy is fine but there are certain diseases for which you need to apply the thumbscrews and chemotherapy. Otherwise the patient is dead. The same thing goes for the Greek political crooks and tax evaders. If you do not crack down hard on them and show them how it's done, they will never change and learn. Even if you let Greece go bankrupt and relieve them of all debt, they will be at 200% debt levels again within a few decades and the same sh*t is here again.

I think your metaphor can be improved. Austerity is more similar to bloodletting: inefficient, outdated and, in extreme cases, mortal. You are a lost case.

Not if applied correctly and efficiently. It's a matter of opinion. We have seen where the alternative to saving has led: misery and doom for millions of people. If the affected countries would be more like Switzerland, this wouldn't happen.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yeah, empathy is fine but there are certain diseases for which you need to apply the thumbscrews and chemotherapy. Otherwise the patient is dead. The same thing goes for the Greek political crooks and tax evaders. If you do not crack down hard on them and show them how it's done, they will never change and learn. Even if you let Greece go bankrupt and relieve them of all debt, they will be at 200% debt levels again within a few decades and the same sh*t is here again.

I think your metaphor can be improved. Austerity is more similar to bloodletting: inefficient, outdated and, in extreme cases, mortal. You are a lost case.

Not if applied correctly and efficiently. It's a matter of opinion. We have seen where the alternative to saving has led: misery and doom for millions of people. If the affected countries would be more like Switzerland, this wouldn't happen.

lol

[ingemann]

Ha! Here I was thinking I was informed and I had no idea this was the case.

Don't blame yourself, English language media is in general very unimformed about EU and the Euro, and this didn't fit in the narrative from either for austerity or against austerity. But already from the start the fear was the collapse of French and Italian banks, when Greece declared bankrupcy, and this would spread in a wave around Europe and the world. It's also why Greece don't have muchto threaten with any more, as German, other Euro and EU governments have taken over much of the debt (and they won't collapse).

[ingemann]

You can't have a currency union without transfers to the poorer parts of the union– it's baked into the very definition of the thing.  And, as Madeleine said, austerity just doesn't work, even on its own terms.

So, yes, "Germany" needs to give Greece money.  There's no other way forward out of this mess.

But framing it as "reparations for WWII" is whackadoo and needlessly inflammatory. No, Germany shouldn't give Greece money for that.

Of course now that you tell us that transfer is necessary it's lucky that they're already happening. 1,3% of the Greek GDP is direct transfer from other EU countries. In fact until a few years Greece was trhe country which was the biggest net receiver from EU, through today Poland and Spain are the two biggest net receivers. Through if we go after per capita they're only the fouth greatest net receiver after Luxembourg (because of the EU institutions placed there), Lithuania and Estonia.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Hasn't the Greek left always supported pressuring the German government into paying more substantial reparations for World War II?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Not spoken like a true Republican, but more like someone with common sense. If you want to live your life like the Greeks, go ahead. And end up broke and a financial slave to others. But that's not what I want to do. Saving is awesome and that's how I managed my money since forever and now have a good surplus. If I managed it like the Greeks, I'd live under a bridge now. And btw, this policy is not really exclusively "Republican". Even Green parties, like the Baden-Württemberg ones, are in favor of fiscal conservatism.

See Branson, there's no doubt about the incompetence of the previous Greek governments (PASOK and ND) but this comment is really insulting for those Greek citizens suffering the consequences of their bad management and the criminal (there's no other word to describe it) diktat from Germany and the Troika. At this point, it doesn't surprise me the terrible lack of empathy of well-meaning fiscal conservatives like you. Probably you are only a product of the environment, a victim of indoctrination. However, calm down.

It was not meant as an insult or as a comparison with the people of Greece who have fallen into actual poverty, but more as an attack on the way the previous governments handled fiscal matters that eventually led to their doom (like you said). The poor people now are only insofar to blame as they tolerated and repeatedly elected these incompetent crooks, while blaming and hating on the Germans, instead of embracing the things that the Germans (and Swiss and Swedes and Danes etc. etc.) did right when it comes to economic/fiscal policies.

The problem is that Germans and other Europeans haven't pressured Greek governments to enact policies similar to theirs. Quite the opposite. These countries were successful, not because of austerity, but because they made the investments in the infrastructure and social welfare necessary to sustain the economy. And have efficient tax systems. The former requires time and money, and the latter is much more likely with a Syriza government than it was with the "fiscal conservatives" previously in power.

What is Syriza's proposal for an efficient tax system?

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

No because Germany has already suffered enough from WWII and though it's been over for nearly 70 years.