Opinion of Bernie Sanders' buzz phrase: "Billionaire Class"
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  Opinion of Bernie Sanders' buzz phrase: "Billionaire Class"
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Author Topic: Opinion of Bernie Sanders' buzz phrase: "Billionaire Class"  (Read 1547 times)
Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck
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« on: March 24, 2015, 02:34:27 PM »

Great!  I love it!  It's basically completely true and it's easy to digest for American dumbs.  Sure it's not diabolical fear-mongering like the Pubbies' "death panels" and "death tax", but it sure is something people should actually be afraid of.  I really hope he runs for President and #BillionaireClass trends hard. 
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SWE
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2015, 02:39:13 PM »

www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw
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TNF
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2015, 02:40:10 PM »

Unclear and convoluted. The phrase he should be using is capitalist class, but that scares liberals, and thus he's going to try and make a distinction between "good capitalists" and "bad capitalists," as he's doing here.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2015, 02:44:18 PM »

Unclear and convoluted. The phrase he should be using is capitalist class, but that scares liberals, and thus he's going to try and make a distinction between "good capitalists" and "bad capitalists," as he's doing here.

Are you putting small business owners (I'm talking about real small business here, not what the Republicans call "small business") in the same category as Bill Gates, then?
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Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2015, 02:44:31 PM »

Unclear and convoluted. The phrase he should be using is capitalist class, but that scares liberals, and thus he's going to try and make a distinction between "good capitalists" and "bad capitalists," as he's doing here.

The idea of bashing capitalism scares 95% of Americans, TNF.  It's essentially our national religion.  I know you want to establish a completely different economic system in America but you mistake a politician's literal inability to say these things without completely forfeiting their career with their character.  People don't even know what socialism is so it starts with education.  
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TNF
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2015, 02:51:13 PM »

Unclear and convoluted. The phrase he should be using is capitalist class, but that scares liberals, and thus he's going to try and make a distinction between "good capitalists" and "bad capitalists," as he's doing here.

Are you putting small business owners (I'm talking about real small business here, not what the Republicans call "small business") in the same category as Bill Gates, then?

Do small businesses not make a profit from the exploitation of the labor of their employees? If the answer is yes, small business owners are still capitalists. Sure, they're not big time capitalists, and I wouldn't necessarily put them in the same class category as capitalists (I'd make a distinction that they're members of the petty bourgeoisie, rather than the big bourgeoisie, of course), but that doesn't negate the fact that the actual problem at hand is not billionaires or millionaires, but capitalism itself. You can go on and on about how terrible the Koch Brothers are or how monopolies should be held to account, but if you take on the Kochs or bust up AT&T without busting up capitalism, there will be another Koch Brothers and another AT&T because that's how capitalism works.

My issue here is with confusing who the actual enemy is. Sanders is doing the public a disservice when he, as a self-proclaimed socialist, does not indict capitalism as the problem. He's essentially reinforcing liberal ideas about how we can continue going about our business once the 'bad apples' have been removed and certain policies reformed, which contradicts the entire history of the 20th Century. We tried busting trusts, regulating the economy, and setting up a welfare state to reform the excesses of capitalism. Trusts reformed, regulations were either tailor-fit to help business or agencies were captured by businesses and then undermined, and the welfare state has been gutted. Don't you think that the failure of those policies warrants something else being tried in the 21st Century? Something that makes it impossible for regulations to be undermined, trusts to be formed in the first place, and the welfare state to be undone?
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politicus
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2015, 02:51:41 PM »

Has a nice ring to and is pretty accurate.
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TNF
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2015, 02:54:53 PM »

Unclear and convoluted. The phrase he should be using is capitalist class, but that scares liberals, and thus he's going to try and make a distinction between "good capitalists" and "bad capitalists," as he's doing here.

The idea of bashing capitalism scares 95% of Americans, TNF.  It's essentially our national religion.  I know you want to establish a completely different economic system in America but you mistake a politician's literal inability to say these things without completely forfeiting their career with their character.  People don't even know what socialism is so it starts with education.  

Kshama Sawant says the kinds of things I'm saying in this thread and is the most popular member of the Seattle City Council. Not only that, but she said those things and helped win a $15 an hour minimum wage in Seattle, a move that inspired San Francisco to do the same thing and that has helped inspire other struggles for a living wage among low wage workers. Making direct appeals on the issue of class, and clearly defining who the enemy is, is far more effective than "good billionaire, bad billionaire," which liberals and reformists like Bernie Sanders have been trying and failing with for years.

Hell, even the idea of the 99% vs. the 1%, which is itself murky and problematic in a lot of ways, in a better descriptor of the actual division of society into classes than what Sanders is going on about here.
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Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2015, 03:00:00 PM »

Unclear and convoluted. The phrase he should be using is capitalist class, but that scares liberals, and thus he's going to try and make a distinction between "good capitalists" and "bad capitalists," as he's doing here.

The idea of bashing capitalism scares 95% of Americans, TNF.  It's essentially our national religion.  I know you want to establish a completely different economic system in America but you mistake a politician's literal inability to say these things without completely forfeiting their career with their character.  People don't even know what socialism is so it starts with education.  

Kshama Sawant says the kinds of things I'm saying in this thread and is the most popular member of the Seattle City Council. Not only that, but she said those things and helped win a $15 an hour minimum wage in Seattle, a move that inspired San Francisco to do the same thing and that has helped inspire other struggles for a living wage among low wage workers. Making direct appeals on the issue of class, and clearly defining who the enemy is, is far more effective than "good billionaire, bad billionaire," which liberals and reformists like Bernie Sanders have been trying and failing with for years.

Hell, even the idea of the 99% vs. the 1%, which is itself murky and problematic in a lot of ways, in a better descriptor of the actual division of society into classes than what Sanders is going on about here.

C'mon man... you can't expect the rhetoric that works in Seattle and San Fransisco to work elsewhere.  And you really don't think Bernie is making a direct appeal on the issue of class by saying things like; "If We Don't Overturn Citizens United, Congress Will Become Paid Employees of the Billionaire Class"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-bernie-sanders/sanders-to-senate-if-we-dont-overturn-citizens-united-the-congress-will-become-paid-employees-of-the-billionaire-class_b_6918468.html

I'm becoming convinced that you shift the goalposts further to the left no matter what any American politician says.  Sometimes you have to look at progress as a good thing.  A first down is still good even if it's not a touchdown. 
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2015, 03:12:54 PM »

Unclear and convoluted. The phrase he should be using is capitalist class, but that scares liberals, and thus he's going to try and make a distinction between "good capitalists" and "bad capitalists," as he's doing here.

Are you putting small business owners (I'm talking about real small business here, not what the Republicans call "small business") in the same category as Bill Gates, then?

Do small businesses not make a profit from the exploitation of the labor of their employees? If the answer is yes, small business owners are still capitalists. Sure, they're not big time capitalists, and I wouldn't necessarily put them in the same class category as capitalists (I'd make a distinction that they're members of the petty bourgeoisie, rather than the big bourgeoisie, of course), but that doesn't negate the fact that the actual problem at hand is not billionaires or millionaires, but capitalism itself. You can go on and on about how terrible the Koch Brothers are or how monopolies should be held to account, but if you take on the Kochs or bust up AT&T without busting up capitalism, there will be another Koch Brothers and another AT&T because that's how capitalism works.

My issue here is with confusing who the actual enemy is. Sanders is doing the public a disservice when he, as a self-proclaimed socialist, does not indict capitalism as the problem. He's essentially reinforcing liberal ideas about how we can continue going about our business once the 'bad apples' have been removed and certain policies reformed, which contradicts the entire history of the 20th Century. We tried busting trusts, regulating the economy, and setting up a welfare state to reform the excesses of capitalism. Trusts reformed, regulations were either tailor-fit to help business or agencies were captured by businesses and then undermined, and the welfare state has been gutted. Don't you think that the failure of those policies warrants something else being tried in the 21st Century? Something that makes it impossible for regulations to be undermined, trusts to be formed in the first place, and the welfare state to be undone?

For the record, I agree that Sanders' claim to being a Socialist is incorrect. I always took it more as a provocation aimed to combat the negative connotation that this word carries in US politics, than as the expression of a genuine ideological commitment. Still, he has a better claim at being a Socialist than, say, François Hollande. Tongue

All I can really say is that, since I'm not an orthodox Marxist, I don't view ownership of the means of production as the main issue to be contested in the modern economic system. It is one issue, certainly. But ultimately, what matters isn't how wealth is produced, but in whose hands it ends up going. Small business owners are net losers in this regards.
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Flake
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2015, 03:50:10 PM »

Unclear and convoluted. The phrase he should be using is capitalist class, but that scares liberals, and thus he's going to try and make a distinction between "good capitalists" and "bad capitalists," as he's doing here.

Are you putting small business owners (I'm talking about real small business here, not what the Republicans call "small business") in the same category as Bill Gates, then?

Do small businesses not make a profit from the exploitation of the labor of their employees? If the answer is yes, small business owners are still capitalists. Sure, they're not big time capitalists, and I wouldn't necessarily put them in the same class category as capitalists (I'd make a distinction that they're members of the petty bourgeoisie, rather than the big bourgeoisie, of course), but that doesn't negate the fact that the actual problem at hand is not billionaires or millionaires, but capitalism itself. You can go on and on about how terrible the Koch Brothers are or how monopolies should be held to account, but if you take on the Kochs or bust up AT&T without busting up capitalism, there will be another Koch Brothers and another AT&T because that's how capitalism works.

My issue here is with confusing who the actual enemy is. Sanders is doing the public a disservice when he, as a self-proclaimed socialist, does not indict capitalism as the problem. He's essentially reinforcing liberal ideas about how we can continue going about our business once the 'bad apples' have been removed and certain policies reformed, which contradicts the entire history of the 20th Century. We tried busting trusts, regulating the economy, and setting up a welfare state to reform the excesses of capitalism. Trusts reformed, regulations were either tailor-fit to help business or agencies were captured by businesses and then undermined, and the welfare state has been gutted. Don't you think that the failure of those policies warrants something else being tried in the 21st Century? Something that makes it impossible for regulations to be undermined, trusts to be formed in the first place, and the welfare state to be undone?

You know, the system of yours in which you prefer everything to be run by the government in order to take care of its citizens is a good idea, where everyone is equal, no one has more power over another person, etc.

But that's really where it stops.

We've seen in places like the Soviet Union where that system leads to a lot of corruption (and I'm not pretending that there's no corruption with business, because there's obviously a lot), and we're seeing countries like China and Cuba beginning to move to capitalist systems again because it works in a world that is mostly capitalist. Even when a society is completely anti-business (ugh I never thought I would use that phrase), it just doesn't work, and its because the leaders of the government tend to be so corrupt that the people do not thrive, we saw that in the USSR and we see that in North Korea, and the government can't really be trusted when it has full control over every aspect of people's lives, from the things they buy to the homes they live in.

Of course an argument you could use is the "co-op business" or "armed left" theories, but a business where all of the employees hold a share of it (which is a really great idea in practice) can only work in smaller cases, maybe a few thousand employees at most, but it wouldn't work in a country of 315 million people, or a world of 7.2 billion. The armed left argument doesn't make too much sense to me either, since there's the whole problem with the insurgents fighting the nation's military (if it was necessary) and if they were to be successful, then what would happen? They continue along with another government that is bound to be corrupt after a victorious, people-led beginning? As I've said before, there's obviously corruption in business, but with checks and balances, it isn't nearly as severe as the corruption that would occur if a country had a government with no checks and balances. A completely laissez-faire government or a completely socialist/marxist government cannot work.

I agree that today's businesses need more regulation. They need to treat their employees with more respect, pay them higher wages, receive harsher penalties for disregarding workers rights, and the people at the top should never have as much power over the government as they do today. I believe that if a company is too big to fail, it should be broken up so it doesn't have an incredibly disastrous effect on our economy, that we should have a government more invested in people rather than a corporation.

But we've seen that a completely socialist/marxist/whatever government cannot work, and you might be thinking "what an awful liberal", but history has given us many examples to show that that kind of government cannot work and will not work.

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DemPGH
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2015, 04:21:37 PM »

Yeah, FP. These are people who own a dozen mansions, a fleet of cars, and can afford an unconscionable piece of luxury like a superyacht. I remember when you were rich if you owned a yacht, now there's a superyacht.
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Murica!
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2015, 04:29:03 PM »

Not correct, but at least it's a step in the right direction.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2015, 04:54:30 PM »
« Edited: March 24, 2015, 04:59:23 PM by IceSpear »

Unclear and convoluted. The phrase he should be using is capitalist class, but that scares liberals, and thus he's going to try and make a distinction between "good capitalists" and "bad capitalists," as he's doing here.

Are you putting small business owners (I'm talking about real small business here, not what the Republicans call "small business") in the same category as Bill Gates, then?

I believe TNF said to me before that the mom and pop store down the street is worse than Bernie Madoff (not even joking.)

Edit: Found it.

Not that much more sinister than all the other capitalist financiers running the show in Washington, although I see that they've attracted special ire from liberals who want to make them the 'bad capitalists' to enhance the image of the 'good capitalists' they sincerely (and stupidly) think exist.

Yeah, because the couple that owns the local bakery down the street are just as bad as Sheldon Adelson, the Kochs, and Bernie Madoff.

Yes, small business owners tend to be almost universally as awful if not more awful than large capitalist enterprise. Part of that is the fact that they must engage in hyper exploitation in order to compete with said larger enterprises. Part of that is also the fact that owners of business tend to be right-wingers, which should surprise literally no one and makes the liberal defense of mom and pop stores all the more baffling from a movement that purports to stand up for the 'little guy'
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Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas
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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2015, 04:58:42 PM »

Trying to play both sides, engaging in communist class warfare while attempting to reassure the averages that he's not talking about "them". In the end, they always are.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2015, 05:02:55 PM »

Trying to play both sides, engaging in communist class warfare while attempting to reassure the averages that he's not talking about "them". In the end, they always are.

First they came for the billionaires...
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2015, 05:38:10 PM »

Completely correct
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Zioneer
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2015, 06:00:10 PM »

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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2015, 06:43:24 PM »

Conferring upon people a brand of ignobility based upon a frivolous calculation of net worth. Only a socialist pauper could be so deluded.
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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2015, 08:31:09 PM »

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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2015, 09:18:35 PM »

Trying to play both sides, engaging in communist class warfare while attempting to reassure the averages that he's not talking about "them". In the end, they always are.

First they came for the billionaires...

Then the millionaires, then the "elites", then the academics...

Yes, that's usually what happens in Communism. And at some point, the nice old man who thought he could keep Communism in line this time is usually taken out too.
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Illuminati Blood Drinker
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« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2015, 09:21:12 PM »

Trying to play both sides, engaging in communist class warfare while attempting to reassure the averages that he's not talking about "them". In the end, they always are.

First they came for the billionaires...

Then the millionaires, then the "elites", then the academics...

Yes, that's usually what happens in Communism. And at some point, the nice old man who thought he could keep Communism in line this time is usually taken out too.
Sanders is not a communist though? Go ask TNF about that (if you're willing to sit through  at least an hour of laughter).
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2015, 09:23:00 PM »

Not sure I know what it even means, unless it literally just describes people who are billionaires ... And I have nothing inherently against the wealthy, even the super wealthy.  Key wore is inherently.
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Miles
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« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2015, 09:47:24 PM »

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Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2015, 09:52:26 PM »

Trying to play both sides, engaging in communist class warfare while attempting to reassure the averages that he's not talking about "them". In the end, they always are.

First they came for the billionaires...

Then the millionaires, then the "elites", then the academics...

Yes, that's usually what happens in Communism. And at some point, the nice old man who thought he could keep Communism in line this time is usually taken out too.
Sanders is not a communist though? Go ask TNF about that (if you're willing to sit through  at least an hour of laughter).

No, he's a socialist. I'd just really rather we didn't go down that path, because guys like him embolden the Communists and often lead to their rise. Not that I think that'll happen here, but that's my main issue with his rhetoric.
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