German American demographics
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King of Kensington
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« on: March 30, 2015, 01:01:51 PM »

Americans of German ancestry are too assimilated now for there to be a "German vote" and they've always been splits along religious and regional lines as well.  Though surely they'd be one of the more Republican groups overall, probably around the same level as Americans of English ancestry.

According to a NORC study of the 1970s, Americans of German ancestry were 70% Protestant and 21% Catholic.

I've noticed on here people talk about voting in "German Catholic areas", "German fundie Lutheran" areas and of course there are Amish/Mennonite settlements. 

One thing I know is that nearly all Germans that came in colonial times were Protestant, so there are few German Catholics in eastern PA and the South where colonial German stock outnumbers 19th century German stock.

Where are the German Catholic rural counties?  What proportion of urban Germans were Catholic as compared to rural settlements?  Was there a difference in the proportion of Catholics in different cities that was were major centers of German immigration?
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King of Kensington
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2015, 01:20:28 PM »

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- Robert W. Speel, Changing Patterns of Voting in the Northern United States: Electoral Realignment, 1952-1996, p. 166
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2015, 01:31:48 PM »

For rural German Catholic areas, look at central and southern Minnesota or areas in the Dakotas. For example:




The dark maroon counties in the southern part of ND are mostly German and the most heavily Catholic. And in Burleigh/Morton while the counties aren't rural in terms of population share, the areas that actually are rural would probably be similar if they were seperate counties. For SD look at the dark ones in the eastern half.



The three most Catholic per ARDA counties that don't have a large Native population are Stearns, Morrison and Brown. Stearns is mostly St. Cloud and usually not considered rural, but the western rural part of the county is mostly German and definitely qualifies. Those other dark maroon counties in southern Minnesota all would be examples as well.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2015, 02:11:37 PM »

There's a bunch in eastern Wisconsin. And they're a swingy lot as well.
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King of Kensington
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2015, 06:19:45 PM »
« Edited: March 30, 2015, 06:23:31 PM by King of Kensington »

In Canada, it varies greatly across the country.  In Nova Scotia, the German origin population dates back to colonial times and is overwhelmingly Protestant and was already assimilated by 1914.  Ontario received Pennsylvania Germans after the American Revolution, mid-19th century German immigration to rural areas centered around Berlin (now Kitchener) and most post-WWII German immigrants (both later waves included Protestant and Catholic).  The Prairie provinces saw more Germans from Russia than actual immigrants from Germany from the 1870s to 1920s. Saskatchewan is heavily German Catholic while southeastern Manitoba is mostly Mennonite.  
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RI
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2015, 07:53:24 PM »

You can't talk about German Catholic counties without mentioning Putnam and Mercer Counties, Ohio.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2015, 10:48:56 PM »



The three most Catholic per ARDA counties that don't have a large Native population are Stearns, Morrison and Brown. Stearns is mostly St. Cloud and usually not considered rural, but the western rural part of the county is mostly German and definitely qualifies. Those other dark maroon counties in southern Minnesota all would be examples as well.

Came across this looking for info about a certain TN county, oddly enough:

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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2015, 10:52:42 PM »

There's a bunch in eastern Wisconsin. And they're a swingy lot as well.

There are a ton of counties in Eastern Wisconsin that have a lot of German Catholics (the WOWs, Fon du Lac, Calumet, Green Lake, Manitowoc, Outagamie, to some extent Milwaukee). 2008 nonwithstanding, all of them except Milwaukee, Outagamie, and Manitowoc (which has a lot of conservadems, a bit like Sheboygan) are Republican base counties. Outagamie and Manitowoc both voted for Romney and voted for Walker all three times. It would be interesting to see who won German Catholics in Milwaukee County, though I am not sure. As a whole, they aren't all that swingy.

They aren't all that German Catholic though. Despite Wisconsin having a relatively large number of German Catholics, they aren't all that concentrated anywhere.

Cross-referencing the % Catholic:


and the % German:


The highest on both is maybe Washington or Fon du Lac, but even there, only around 35% at most are German Catholics.

Taylor County up north is also heavily German Catholic.

Wisconsin's German Catholics were a monolithic Democratic block until WWI, then swung violently toward the Republicans. Many of the rural German Catholic towns had swings around 70-80% toward the GOP from the 1916 presidential election to 1920. German Protestants were ~65% D prior to WWI and afterward voted the same way as German Catholics except during 1928 and 1960. Today in Wisconsin the German Catholic and German Lutheran vote is indistinguishable.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2015, 10:57:14 PM »

You can't talk about German Catholic counties without mentioning Putnam and Mercer Counties, Ohio.

Yup. Putnam and Mercer are much more concentrated than anywhere in Wisconsin. Each is roughly 65% German Catholic and Mercer has some areas in the southern part of the county that are close to 100% (the pack of 85-90% R precincts on the DRA). In recent years, Mercer and Putnam have consistent been the most, and either 2nd or 3rd most heavily Republican counties in Ohio when apart from religion and German ancestry they aren't any different than the rest of the rural counties in western Ohio. This is probably the flashiest example of where "German Catholic voting patterns" could come up on the Atlas.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2015, 11:07:34 PM »

Was there a difference in the proportion of Catholics in different cities that was were major centers of German immigration?

Yes. I can't speak for every metro area but the Germans who settled in Milwaukee were a roughly even mix between Catholics and Lutherans, whereas Cincinnati had fewer German Protestants. Incredibly for the abundance of German ancestry, Hamilton County is only around 1% Lutheran. However, since the Milwaukee area is more German than the Cincinnati area, it is more heavily Catholic than the Cincinnati area.

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King of Kensington
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2015, 11:39:51 PM »
« Edited: March 31, 2015, 12:08:34 AM by King of Kensington »

In New York City in 1900, the German foreign stock population was estimated to be 65% Protestant, 20% Jewish and 15% Catholic.  Obviously the German Jewish proportion was much higher in NYC than elsewhere.*

* Though Cincinnati had a good sized German Jewish population around the time of the Civil War.  Cincinnati might be the only major US city where the German Jewish community probably wasn't outnumbered by later arriving Eastern Europeans.  
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2015, 11:52:00 PM »
« Edited: March 30, 2015, 11:54:35 PM by Senator Griffin »

I did Tennessee because I was expecting for it to be a tad more interesting than what it turned out to be. There were a number of German and Swiss-German colonies built along the Cumberland Plateau between 1840 and 1890, but several failed and the residents ultimately migrated to Knoxville (which already had a fairly large Swiss-German community at the time) or dispersed. I wasn't able to track down all of them, though, but there are still quite a few notable cities remaining (Hohenwald, Gruetli-Laager, Wartburg).

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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2015, 01:45:00 AM »
« Edited: March 31, 2015, 01:48:39 AM by Senator Griffin »

I did Tennessee because I was expecting for it to be a tad more interesting than what it turned out to be. There were a number of German and Swiss-German colonies built along the Cumberland Plateau between 1840 and 1890, but several failed and the residents ultimately migrated to Knoxville (which already had a fairly large Swiss-German community at the time) or dispersed. I wasn't able to track down all of them, though, but there are still quite a few notable cities remaining (Hohenwald, Gruetli-Laager, Wartburg).



Potentially interesting finds: OK, so after a bit more digging, I tried to see if any of these counties with larger German populations might actually have a significant Catholic population. The only example I could find that really stood out was Williamson County, which isn't a rural county anymore (pop. 200,000).

I still think this is quite interesting, as there is no other urban or metro county in Tennessee that has anywhere near the Catholic population (21%) that it does. It's also tied for a close third in German population percentage. What is odd to me about its Catholic population is that usually, you don't find large populations of Catholics in the South in a suburban county without there being a comparably-sized or larger Catholic population in an adjacent metro area. Nashville/Davidson has 9%; Memphis/Shelby has 14%; Knoxville/Knox and Chattanooga/Hamilton each have 6%. So I'm pondering whether this county - before the most recent metro explosion in growth occurred over the past 30 years - had a much larger rural German population that was indeed Catholic.

I did find some more interesting auxiliary connections in the area: Maury County (adjacent; to the South) also has a larger than normal Catholic population (11%) and is adjacent to two other counties (Lewis, Lawrence) that once had extensive German "colony" projects in them:

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Lewis, which is home to Hohenwald:

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Code:
County:        German %     Catholic %

Morgan:        24%              1%
Cumberland:  15%              8%
Loudon:        13%              2%
Williamson:   13%              21%

So this general area seems to have some potential for German Catholic rural consideration:



I haven't checked to see if there is a perfect correlation, but this also seems to be in the same general vicinity as the part of TN that has always been stubbornly Republican...
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Flake
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2015, 02:06:14 AM »

I'm loving these posts, Griff.
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Ebsy
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2015, 02:13:47 AM »

In Missouri, there are a series of towns along and near the Missouri river between Jefferson City and St. Louis that were founded by German Catholics, and some of the counties there are still plurality Catholic. Hermann, Missouri springs immediately to mind. It was/is known for it's german vinters.
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HAnnA MArin County
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2015, 05:00:40 AM »

In Missouri, there are a series of towns along and near the Missouri river between Jefferson City and St. Louis that were founded by German Catholics, and some of the counties there are still plurality Catholic. Hermann, Missouri springs immediately to mind. It was/is known for it's german vinters.

Perry and Osage Counties come to mind for me. Perry County is about 60% Catholic and is heavily Republican, as is Osage County one of the most Republican counties in the state. Osage contains the community of Westphalia where even the streets are labeled in German. Other counties in what's known as the Missouri Rhineland are strongly GOP as well; Hermann, as you've mentioned, is in Gasconade County and has one of the longest Republican streaks in the state as no Democrat has carried the county in a presidential election since before the Civil War (!). I think most of Gasconade is Dutch-German though. My home county of Bollinger contains a community called Leopold which has one of the highest concentrations of Dutch Germans in the state and is almost uniformly Catholic and heavily Republican. You can't go hardly anywhere in Leopold without seeing a pro-life yard sign or a statue of Mary in their yards. Common last names here are of German descent, including Vandeven, VanderMierden, Stoverink, Jansen, Nenninger, Seiler, Eftink, Elfrink, Thiele, Horrell, etc. In fact, there are only two Catholic churches in Bollinger County: one (St. John's) is located in Leopold (directly across from the "public" school), while the other (St. Anthony's) is in Glennon, a "suburb" of Leopold.
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2015, 09:42:22 AM »

The other notable German Catholic county I just remembered is Ellis County, Kansas.
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King of Kensington
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2015, 02:22:00 PM »
« Edited: March 31, 2015, 02:46:48 PM by King of Kensington »

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http://home.comcast.net/~owen.rutz/rutz_genealogy/German_Immigration.htm

According to the Encyclopedia of Chicago:

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http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/512.html

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solarstorm
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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2015, 02:45:12 PM »

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jimrtex
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« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2015, 10:12:05 PM »

Maybe that was the Swedish name.
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King of Kensington
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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2015, 11:55:46 PM »
« Edited: April 06, 2015, 12:17:50 AM by King of Kensington »

Looking back at the 1931 census, I could find two Ontario counties where Roman Catholics of German origin made up more than 10% of the population: Waterloo (including Kitchener) and Bruce.  Both counties received many German immigrants in the mid 19th century.  But most Ontario Germans were Protestant and only these two counties had substantial German Catholic populations (about 50% in Bruce and over a quarter in Waterloo).  

There are no counties in Western Canada, but Statistics Canada has census divisions which are kind of like counties, though usually larger.  There were two census divisions in Saskatchewan that were more than 10% German Catholic in 1931: Division No. 6 (Regina area) and Division No. 13 (rural western Saskatchewan).  Few came directly from Germany, they mostly came from Russia.

Saskatchewan was home to North America's first socialist government, the NDP's predecessor, the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation (CCF) was elected in 1944.  The CCF did best among working class immigrants from Britain in the cities and among Scandinavians.  Germans were the least supportive of the CCF - whether Catholic, Lutheran or Mennonite.  Mennonite communities were the most anti-CCF.

Manitoba is really the demographic oddball compared to its neighbors.  Not as German as Saskatchewan, Minnesota or the Dakotas and Mennonites outnumber German Catholics.  Not that many Scandinavians, and they're mostly Icelandic rather than Norwegian. Saskatchewan obviously differs from the US states it borders, and like Manitoba it has a lot of Ukrainians but it also has a lot of Norwegians and German Catholics.

Since this time, Waterloo County has grown this fastest and has urbanized substantially.  While it was majority German until WWII, it is now only about 25% German today (though there are still Mennonite communities in the rural areas).  Today it's hard to determine any voting pattern outside the Mennonite enclaves, except since the most German areas are rural areas, they vote heavily Conservative.  



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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2015, 05:15:32 PM »
« Edited: April 22, 2015, 05:17:06 PM by Oldiesfreak1854 »

Nowadays, I imagine they'd be more Republican.  I come from a predominantly rural, conservative German Lutheran community that is heavily Republican and only votes for Democrats when they win by landslides.  I'm pretty sure it's always voted that way (at least it has as far back as I have data.)  That seems to contradict a secondary source I saw that claimed German Lutherans voted Democrat because of the moralism in the GOP.  I've always understood that until the Depression, German Catholics voted Democrat, German Protestants leaned Republican, and German Jews were solidly Republican.


I remember reading an article from the early 90s that mentioned that Lutherans voted over 60% Republican.  I kind of doubt they get those kind of numbers now. http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9202/articles/noll.html
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« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2015, 06:12:59 PM »

Nah I can believe that still being true since it seems to be referring to all Lutherans not just ELCA.
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Hydera
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« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2015, 06:17:48 PM »

Nowadays, I imagine they'd be more Republican.  I come from a predominantly rural, conservative German Lutheran community that is heavily Republican and only votes for Democrats when they win by landslides.  I'm pretty sure it's always voted that way (at least it has as far back as I have data.)  That seems to contradict a secondary source I saw that claimed German Lutherans voted Democrat because of the moralism in the GOP.  I've always understood that until the Depression, German Catholics voted Democrat, German Protestants leaned Republican, and German Jews were solidly Republican.


I remember reading an article from the early 90s that mentioned that Lutherans voted over 60% Republican.  I kind of doubt they get those kind of numbers now. http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9202/articles/noll.html

In till theres a better explanation i think we can safely say that in the mid-west, maybe the voting patterns in their homeland (With the CDU being the natural governing party in Germany, and in scandanavia where politics are slightly more left wing) that this is the best explanation.










http://www.geocurrents.info/geopolitics/elections/swedish-americans-vote-democrats-national-origins-voting-behavior-united-states

There definitely is a pattern where the democrats were able to win precints that had a lot of scandanavian ancestry.

The only outliner is in iowa, where the voting patterns are swapped.
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