MA: Fix the Constitution Act (Final Vote)

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

What do people think about the "suspend all other legislation in debate" part?  Is that necessary?

[Boston Bread]

What do people think about the "suspend all other legislation in debate" part?  Is that necessary?

The importance of passing a budget is so that the government should not let it be unnecessarily impeded, so yes. Although I would say having a balanced budget amendment is itself an impediment.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

What do people think about the "suspend all other legislation in debate" part?  Is that necessary?

I see this as the least offensive part of the amendment.

[Boston Bread]

The amendment passes 3-0.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'd like to modify the amendment to section III as follows:

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[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

The revised text is certainly better in terms of length. A few quibbles:

• I don't think it's a good idea to establish the Mideast Reserve Fund in the actual text of the Constitution. Since this is in essence a budgetary tool, it should be placed directly in the hands of the people who craft the budget: the Assembly. Furthermore, I feel like the nature of the Fund is somewhat ambiguous. Is this a savings account? Can the funds be drawn at any time, or only under specific circumstances? Establishing the MRF by ordinary legislation allows us to flesh this proposal out much more thoroughly than we can in a Constitution.
• Clause 4 leaves the definition of "appropriate measures" very much up in the air. While it is generally a good idea to build some flexibility into the Constitution, I feel like this is much too loose.
• As Windjammer pointed out earlier, we cannot always count on having a 2/3 majority in a severe crisis, such as a natural disaster or a severe economic recession. In the event of such an emergency, time would be of the essence, and the risk that the Regional government would fail to respond in time is simply too high. This point continues to trouble me, because I don't see a way to address it without rendering this amendment effectively meaningless.

My question for the sponsor is: Why is it necessary to have a balanced budget enshrined in the Constitution, as opposed to being an understood ideal? In other words, couldn't the Regional Government acknowledge that it is best to balance the budget whenever possible, but not require the Assembly to do so? I don't mean this as a rhetorical question: I'm actually curious to hear what you think.

The way I see it, having a balanced budget be an understood responsibility rather than an explicit one would have two benefits: allowing the Assembly flexibility in times of crisis and providing an added topic for campaigns. If a balanced budget is mandated by the Constitution, there's little reason to bring it up on the campaign trail; if it is merely one of many options, there's more opportunity for a heated debate over fiscal policy.

[Boston Bread]

Shua, do you want a vote on your amendment now? This is the last matter regarding the bill, and I want to see it passed before the election ideally.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

A good point made about the fund being better as a matter of statute, and the "appropriate measures" so I will modify this again:

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We can vote on this whatever.   I  will just say that, it being somewhat controversial, it may make it harder to get the Constitution ratified if we remove this part of the Constitution.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

What does everyone think of specifically naming circumstances in which the 2/3 rule can be discarded?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

What does everyone think of specifically naming circumstances in which the 2/3 rule can be discarded?

I don't see the point of that.  If there is a general consensus it important enough, then the assembly will be able to override it.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

What does everyone think of specifically naming circumstances in which the 2/3 rule can be discarded?

I don't see the point of that.  If there is a general consensus it important enough, then the assembly will be able to override it.

The point is that we cannot necessarily depend upon politicians to be reasonable in times of crisis. Suppose, for example, that the Stock Market crashed tomorrow (not an implausible scenario with our current GM): swift and decisive action would be required to address this emergency, and it very well might require deficit spending. Because progressives and conservatives differ greatly on how to respond to such a crisis, however, it might not be possible to respond quickly enough with the 2/3 rule in place. As a result, the economy plunges into Depression and the Assembly is too deadlocked to do anything about it.

My concern is that building a consensus on sensitive budgetary issues may not always be as easy as this amendment assumes. What this ultimately comes down to is whether you trust politicians to act maturely: I do not. Unless there is some provision to prevent a government shutdown during a state of emergency, I cannot support this proposal.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

What does everyone think of specifically naming circumstances in which the 2/3 rule can be discarded?

I don't see the point of that.  If there is a general consensus it important enough, then the assembly will be able to override it.

The point is that we cannot necessarily depend upon politicians to be reasonable in times of crisis. Suppose, for example, that the Stock Market crashed tomorrow (not an implausible scenario with our current GM): swift and decisive action would be required to address this emergency, and it very well might require deficit spending. Because progressives and conservatives differ greatly on how to respond to such a crisis, however, it might not be possible to respond quickly enough with the 2/3 rule in place. As a result, the economy plunges into Depression and the Assembly is too deadlocked to do anything about it.

My concern is that building a consensus on sensitive budgetary issues may not always be as easy as this amendment assumes. What this ultimately comes down to is whether you trust politicians to act maturely: I do not. Unless there is some provision to prevent a government shutdown during a state of emergency, I cannot support this proposal.

If people agree that deficit spending is required, they can waive the balanced budget rule. It doesn't require that 2/3 agree on how to spend the money.

If you can't count on the representatives of the region to be reasonable, then the people should elect new representatives.

[Boston Bread]

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If there is an emergency, and there isn't a 2/3 majority in the assembly, should the voters have to wait until the next election cycle to implement a budget that would address it? Might be too late.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

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If there is an emergency, and there isn't a 2/3 majority in the assembly, should the voters have to wait until the next election cycle to implement a budget that would address it? Might be too late.

Agreed. Look at what happened during the Great Depression: by the time the voters had a chance to replace Hoover, unemployment was at 24%.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

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If there is an emergency, and there isn't a 2/3 majority in the assembly, should the voters have to wait until the next election cycle to implement a budget that would address it? Might be too late.

Agreed. Look at what happened during the Great Depression: by the time the voters had a chance to replace Hoover, unemployment was at 24%.

We have elections every 2 months.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

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If there is an emergency, and there isn't a 2/3 majority in the assembly, should the voters have to wait until the next election cycle to implement a budget that would address it? Might be too late.

Agreed. Look at what happened during the Great Depression: by the time the voters had a chance to replace Hoover, unemployment was at 24%.

We have elections every 2 months.

Events move faster in Atlasia than in real life, though. Look what happened with Puerto Santos: it didn't take long for the coup there to start taking their toll on the Atlasian economy.

[Boston Bread]

I believe the Fix the Constitution Act could pass without the balanced budget amendment. But I would be open to putting the Constitution Act and Balanced Budget Repeal into different bills, and thus different referendums to give the former a better chance of passing. That could be done if Shua's amendment was passed and the Balanced Budget Repeal Act was reintroduced. What do you all say?

[windjammer]

Could someone post the current version please?

[Boston Bread]

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(continued in next post)

[Boston Bread]

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Can anyone confirm all the amendments have been inserted correctly?

[windjammer]

Thank you,
If someone could sponsor this:

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.

I obviously don't support that but I would like the constitutional amendment to pass. If a balanced budget should be in the constitution, we can discuss that later by trying to repeal it.

[Boston Bread]

Let's go ahead on Shua's.
I will call a vote on Shua's balanced budget amendment. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

AYE, in the interests of keeping this Act as non-controversial as possible.

Can anyone confirm all the amendments have been inserted correctly?

The only mistake I noticed was the omission of the Pardon Amendment (below).

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[Boston Bread]

Thanks Truman, I should have it edited in.
Aye on the vote.

[Hatman 🍁]

Aye