Opinion of this quote

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

(A bit of a paraphrase since the forum I originally read it on doesn't exist anymore):

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Can only imagine what some people here think of the comparison. I personally found it dead on.

[Oakvale]

So American that I have to wonder if it's a parody. Talking about this topic as a competitive market neatly explains most of the problem as to why Americans in general just fundamentally don't understand religion.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Jesus F. Christ

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

[Tetro Kornbluth]

(Yes, I would normally hate to empty quote Snowstalker, but this calls for it).

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Not sure what that has to do with US foreign policy....

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Would benefit from being placed on a page next to a picture of a Virgin in Majesty statue with an especially imperious and judgmental expression.

[Mr. Smith]

HQ for Hilarious Quote.

[Associate Justice PiT]

So American that I have to wonder if it's a parody. Talking about this topic as a competitive market neatly explains most of the problem as to why Americans in general just fundamentally don't understand religion.

     This uniquely American conception of the cultural role of religion is so bizarre that I can't really conceive of how anyone takes it seriously. We're talking about a shared history, a shared code of suffering...that one can just flippantly discard.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

So American that I have to wonder if it's a parody. Talking about this topic as a competitive market neatly explains most of the problem as to why Americans in general just fundamentally don't understand religion.

     This uniquely American conception of the cultural role of religion is so bizarre that I can't really conceive of how anyone takes it seriously. We're talking about a shared history, a shared code of suffering...that one can just flippantly discard.

Because it is quite easy to discard? It's more convenient than it is to change cell carriers, and you never have to worry about any type of early termination fee.

And still don't get the picture. What's it have to do with American drone policy?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

So American that I have to wonder if it's a parody. Talking about this topic as a competitive market neatly explains most of the problem as to why Americans in general just fundamentally don't understand religion.

There is one thing we do get right.  We Americans generally understand that religion must serve the needs of its followers in order to be relevant to its adherents.  It's why a one-size-fits-all conception of religion doesn't really work, tho many true believers do tend to think their own size does fit all.

[Associate Justice PiT]

So American that I have to wonder if it's a parody. Talking about this topic as a competitive market neatly explains most of the problem as to why Americans in general just fundamentally don't understand religion.

     This uniquely American conception of the cultural role of religion is so bizarre that I can't really conceive of how anyone takes it seriously. We're talking about a shared history, a shared code of suffering...that one can just flippantly discard.

Because it is quite easy to discard? It's more convenient than it is to change cell carriers, and you never have to worry about any type of early termination fee.

And still don't get the picture. What's it have to do with American drone policy?

     Very few people outside of the United States would take this notion seriously. Make of that what you will.

[Vosem]

Literal Freedom Quote. In America, it is much easier to switch religions or convert than it is close to anywhere else in the world (maybe anywhere else); it's a much freer religious atmosphere. It's true that most few people outside the US have the attitude of the person in the original quote, but that doesn't make it any less valid.

[tik 🪀✨]

Literal Freedom Quote. In America, it is much easier to switch religions or convert than it is close to anywhere else in the world (maybe anywhere else); it's a much freer religious atmosphere. It's true that most few people outside the US have the attitude of the person in the original quote, but that doesn't make it any less valid.

Ostracism, bullying, threats, pressure to conform with family, friends, and your community, it's not real! This is America! People sometimes wake up Catholic, fall asleep Buddhist, and still raise their kids to be Jewish. There are also no cats, and the streets are filled with cheese.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Literal Freedom Quote. In America, it is much easier to switch religions or convert than it is close to anywhere else in the world (maybe anywhere else); it's a much freer religious atmosphere. It's true that most few people outside the US have the attitude of the person in the original quote, but that doesn't make it any less valid.

Ostracism, bullying, threats, pressure to conform with family, friends, and your community, it's not real! This is America! People sometimes wake up Catholic, fall asleep Buddhist, and still raise their kids to be Jewish. There are also no cats, and the streets are filled with cheese.

Swiss cheese judging by the potholes.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

So American that I have to wonder if it's a parody. Talking about this topic as a competitive market neatly explains most of the problem as to why Americans in general just fundamentally don't understand religion.

     This uniquely American conception of the cultural role of religion is so bizarre that I can't really conceive of how anyone takes it seriously. We're talking about a shared history, a shared code of suffering...that one can just flippantly discard.

Because it is quite easy to discard? It's more convenient than it is to change cell carriers, and you never have to worry about any type of early termination fee.

The problem with this analogy is that it implies that you have as much attachment, commitment, and loyalty to your religion as you do to your cell carrier.

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Oh for crying out loud.

[tik 🪀✨]

Literal Freedom Quote. In America, it is much easier to switch religions or convert than it is close to anywhere else in the world (maybe anywhere else); it's a much freer religious atmosphere. It's true that most few people outside the US have the attitude of the person in the original quote, but that doesn't make it any less valid.

Ostracism, bullying, threats, pressure to conform with family, friends, and your community, it's not real! This is America! People sometimes wake up Catholic, fall asleep Buddhist, and still raise their kids to be Jewish. There are also no cats, and the streets are filled with cheese.

"It's not totally perfect? That means it's not good at all."

That's literally what your post sounds like.

Are you sure you quoted the right person? Vosem said it was easier to change religious affiliation in the US than other countries, so I (admittedly rather strangely) pointed out all of the pressures many people feel to stay in the religion their circumstances have put them in. Sure, no one is likely to murder you for changing, but it's not exactly as easy or carefree as a couple people seem to think. And, if it is indeed that easy for some, maybe calling what they believe "religion" is the wrong term.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

So American that I have to wonder if it's a parody. Talking about this topic as a competitive market neatly explains most of the problem as to why Americans in general just fundamentally don't understand religion.

     This uniquely American conception of the cultural role of religion is so bizarre that I can't really conceive of how anyone takes it seriously. We're talking about a shared history, a shared code of suffering...that one can just flippantly discard.

Because it is quite easy to discard? It's more convenient than it is to change cell carriers, and you never have to worry about any type of early termination fee.

The problem with this analogy is that it implies that you have as much attachment, commitment, and loyalty to your religion as you do to your cell carrier.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Oh for crying out loud.

Well having low attachment, commitment and loyalty to something  you had zero input in choosing and was entirely imposed on you (as is what's being referred to here) makes sense.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

So American that I have to wonder if it's a parody. Talking about this topic as a competitive market neatly explains most of the problem as to why Americans in general just fundamentally don't understand religion.

     This uniquely American conception of the cultural role of religion is so bizarre that I can't really conceive of how anyone takes it seriously. We're talking about a shared history, a shared code of suffering...that one can just flippantly discard.

Because it is quite easy to discard? It's more convenient than it is to change cell carriers, and you never have to worry about any type of early termination fee.

The problem with this analogy is that it implies that you have as much attachment, commitment, and loyalty to your religion as you do to your cell carrier.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Oh for crying out loud.

Well having low attachment, commitment and loyalty to something  you had zero input in choosing and was entirely imposed on you (as is what's being referred to here) makes sense.

...

You're honestly somewhat frightening sometimes, you know.

[traininthedistance]

So American that I have to wonder if it's a parody. Talking about this topic as a competitive market neatly explains most of the problem as to why Americans in general just fundamentally don't understand religion.

     This uniquely American conception of the cultural role of religion is so bizarre that I can't really conceive of how anyone takes it seriously. We're talking about a shared history, a shared code of suffering...that one can just flippantly discard.

Because it is quite easy to discard? It's more convenient than it is to change cell carriers, and you never have to worry about any type of early termination fee.

The problem with this analogy is that it implies that you have as much attachment, commitment, and loyalty to your religion as you do to your cell carrier.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Oh for crying out loud.

Well having low attachment, commitment and loyalty to something  you had zero input in choosing and was entirely imposed on you (as is what's being referred to here) makes sense.

...

You're honestly somewhat frightening sometimes, you know.

Forgive me, Madeline... but I think it's a good thing that America has a culture where religion etc. can be a matter of personal conscience, more than just the ties that bind (and, all too often, choke).

I am aware that BRTD's self-parody has kind of poisoned the well on this forum for a principled defense of being able to construct one's own identity, if and when necessary.  That's a shame, because it's a crucial freedom that I am keenly interested in defending, and it is to America's credit that our culture has a greater space for it that than most others do.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I mean, obviously there are things worth admiring about that aspect of American society, but as somebody who traces a lot of the problems in her life back to not having had any real sense of religious community that preexists or will outlast me until relatively recently, it's not something towards which I'm able to be particularly empathetic. Even so, what scares me isn't so much that concept in and of itself (I notice you say 'if and when necessary', and I won't deny that it is, sometimes, necessary) as that BRTD's application of it--where we owe our parents and our ancestors and our communities nothing; where we come into this world without anything at all that we can expect to define us in relation to other people for the remainder; where comparing religious affiliation to cell phone coverage is even a comprehensible analogy, much less an appropriate one--isn't just individualistic, it's almost psychopathic. And for somebody like BRTD who prides himself on deliberately cultivating a confirmation bias that privileges left-liberalism over every other conceivable worldview, it smacks remarkably strongly of a certain Margaret Thatcher quote.

If this is the glorious future of the American Protestant left, then just [Inks]ing throw me in the Tiber and start calling me by my confirmation name, because I give up.

[traininthedistance]

WARNING: rambling and sorta-personal

I mean, obviously there are things worth admiring about that aspect of American society, but as somebody who traces a lot of the problems in her life back to not having had any real sense of religious community that preexists or will outlast me until relatively recently, it's not something towards which I'm able to be particularly empathetic. Even so, what scares me isn't so much that concept in and of itself (I notice you say 'if and when necessary', and I won't deny that it is, sometimes, necessary)

Well, obviously it's not really just a matter of "religious community", it's a matter of "community" in general.  And "community" was something that just didn't work for me, growing up.  For various reasons (but not really anyone's fault) I didn't forge close bonds with my hometown; I didn't have a stable of friends I could always go back to or whatever.  And I wouldn't have been able to fake it, either.  It took leaving home, seeking out people in college and afterwards with other commonalities, to get anything resembling a normal life.  So obviously my natural sympathy lies with those who have to leave home, who have to construct a life without those usual fallbacks. This idea that stronger religious-or-whatever preexisting communities are actually any sort of solution rings pretty false to me, and also kinda implies that I was defective to boot.  I'm obviously going to instinctually push back against that.

Thing is, it's not even like my hometown or my home parish or whatever was even all that bad!  With the gift of time and perspective I've come to realize it was actually a very good place to grow up, in comparison to most other places.  That doesn't mean we got along, or should be forced to continue doing so.

And, to speak specifically to the "religious" part of the "religious community"... what do you do with kinds that ask the pesky questions?  Like, I've said before, I was raised Catholic.  For awhile.  And I took it seriously!  For awhile.  But then I started reading more, and having doubts, and (mumble mumble various personal things) and next you know I never even got confirmed.  And I wouldn't have wanted to get confirmed.  I mean, what are you supposed to do?  Keep attending, even though it's a lie?  Like, I get that this is less of a stumbling block for things like Judaism and Hinduism, which is more openly about tradition and ritual and where faith is besides the point.  But, uh, it might not be Calvinist but I'm pretty sure that faith is supposed to be a big part of the one holy Roman Catholic church, too?

as that BRTD's application of it--where we owe our parents and our ancestors and our communities nothing; where we come into this world without anything at all that we can expect to define us in relation to other people for the remainder; where comparing religious affiliation to cell phone coverage is even a comprehensible analogy, much less an appropriate one--isn't just individualistic, it's almost psychopathic. And for somebody like BRTD who prides himself on deliberately cultivating a confirmation bias that privileges left-liberalism over every other conceivable worldview, it smacks remarkably strongly of a certain Margaret Thatcher quote.

I'd separate out parents and ancestors and communities.  Obviously we owe our parents (assuming they're not abusive of course); they put in all the work to raise us.  Arguably the same thing, but more tenuously, could be said about communities, the whole "it takes a village" mantra– but for various reasons trying to spin that into "owe" shades into "ties that choke" for me.  Yes, we owe our friends and neighbors and teachers and (if we're religious) current pastors; but we also have the right to find those friends and neighbors and teachers who actually feel like community; we have to have that right.

Ancestors... a lot of people feel the pull of connecting with one's ancestors.  It's a very common human urge.  I have it, too!  But I'm going to have to pull a reverse-Mikado here and say that it doesn't make any metaphysical sense to mandate any sort of obligation to people who no longer exist in the physical world.  When you "fulfill obligations to your ancestors", you may be doing something you feel you need to do, you may be doing something very much worth doing, but you're doing it for your family and your community and, well, yourself.

As for the cell-phone analogy... I think you're reading a flippancy into it that, honestly, I'm not sure is entirely warranted.  But okay, it doesn't sound great.

If this is the glorious future of the American Protestant left, then just [Inks]ing throw me in the Tiber and start calling me by my confirmation name, because I give up.

Well... I have no particular stake in the American Protestant Left. I'm very much American Left, but you can leave out the Protestant part.  I'm an ex-Catholic, okay, and do describe myself as such, but I'm not a current anything (no, not an "atheist" either).  I did, to be perfectly open, flirt with Quakerism for awhile at college, and, yes, flirt is the sadly correct word. I was in a mental state where I needed some sort sort of label with which to care about the Divine, and I went to a Quaker school, and I knew enough about various Theology 101s that they struck me as pretty much the only "creed" (if you can even call Quakerism a "creed" of course) that I could in good conscience give myself over to.

For various reasons, that has passed, and I haven't seriously contemplated taking up organized religion– at least in the "faith-needing" Christian sense, and I'm not qualified for any other ethnoreligious membership, now aren't I– since.

I guess, on the off-off-chance I ever have children, they'd actually be raised Jewish.  Erm... nominally Jewish, but functionally secular, more like.  You can probably guess the main, obvious, reason. But it's not a decision that causes me any pain or agita– the culture of my GF's family is one that I've always felt more honestly at home with than I care to usually admit.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Oh, yeah, I do understand and respect all of that, it's just...like you said, there's situations in which someone grows apart from the beliefs or institutions with which they were raised and American culture does a better job of accommodating that (and rightly so) than most others--and then there's BRTD's self-parody of that.

And for reasons of my own--this is going to be personal too but I'll try to keep it short--I don't feel entirely equipped to comment on your experiences in as fair and empathetic a way as I'd like to. As you might know, my family background is, ancestrally, Italian Catholic, but the sins of my grandparents' generation meant that my parents' generation couldn't deal with that any more and by and large drifted away from it. Now, I feel a strong pull back towards it, but don't feel comfortable or safe making a full and complete return for reasons that are probably obvious. (afleitch once made the accusation that the fact that I'm queer is all that's preventing me from slipping completely into conservative traditionalist Anglicanism, but that isn't quite true. The fact that I'm queer is all that's preventing me from slipping into traditionalist Italian Catholicism.) The problem is that within mainline Protestantism I don't feel supported or consoled in that unfulfillable desire to return. Even though I too have chosen to remain somewhat separated from my family's ancestral religious and cultural identity, I understand having made that decision as fundamentally tragic and something that prevents me from fully integrating my sense of self. Mainline Protestant communities don't have that sense of tragedy; even if they pay lip service to the principle that the schisms of the Reformation were unfortunate in a macro sense, they're if anything somewhat smug about having made whatever breaks they've made individually. BRTD-style 'emergent' types are even worse about that, vastly vastly worse.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I just got back from an Ingress marathon so I'm too tired to read all of that until the morning, but I'll just say: I thought my attitude toward any type of non-self-shaped identity was pretty obvious with my opinions about nationalism and jingoism...and seeing what those have spawned I'm not too ashamed of it.

Also the fact that things I'm into can easily be inserted into just about existing culture with little difficulty and exist independent of their surroundings is something I actually find quite appealing about them, since by definition then they're not excluding anyone. Hell to use a weird but fitting analogy, look at my quite hated metal, and how there are things like Scandinavian black metal that don't really exist in that style outside of that region. And then look at my scene's music, which is basically the same thing no matter what country it's in, and people even wear the same type of hoodies. It's not part of some thing you have to be born into, like some nasty caste system and is accessible by everyone. And I've found that emergents have a pretty similar attitude toward the emergent scene as well, it's got people from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds, isn't limited or even heavily disproporationally concentrated in just one region of the country (although yes rather urban concentrated), and is for now something you can't have been born into if you're an adult and thus has to be something you chose, it wasn't chosen for you. And pride in that is something that I think would at least be understandable. And you know what's funny? My cell phone carrier (who I actually even work for now) is the same as it was in high school when I got my first cell phone, so actually yeah, that identity that I was thrust into did stick far more than anything else.

[tik 🪀✨]

That was.. BRTDarded.

As much as you make me want to pull my hair out.. I can't fault your reliability. "Wayl I didn't read any of that because Ingress  but metal scene Christian urban etc."