Affirmative Consent in Post-Secondary Education Act - Political Tracker Polls

[Lumine]

We have seen some very strong opinions here as well, but what does Atlasia think?

Three days.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

A vile attack on regional rights and common sense practicality. Strongly disapprove.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I think I have made my views clear on this bill. I have also put forth a counterproposal in the Southern Legislature.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I probably should have responded in the proper fashion in the Senate thread, but I thought this needed to be reposted here instead:

This isn't a criminal matter. No one is being sent to jail. It's much more comparable to a civil matter, where the standards are much lower. "Preponderance of the evidence" doesn't mean 50% +1 of the evidence; it means looking at both stories and deciding which one is more likely to have happened. This is the "standard" used by school administrations in other disciplinary matters; why should rape cases suddenly have a much, much higher standard before the student is punished? If a school administration believes that one of their students is more likely than not a rapist, then they should be able to eject them from the school. The safety of other students is what is paramount here.

     Rape isn't a criminal matter, evidently.

[Senator Cris]

Disapprove, as pointed out in the Senate floor.

[ZuWo]

Thanks for making these polls, Lumine! They raise awareness about the kind of issues our Senators are focused on and they help citizens to form their own opinions - really useful.

As for the bill in question, disapprove. It's unworkable.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I am trying not to take Lief out of context but no matter how I slice it I cannot find anyway to put rape in the same thought as "isn't a criminal matter" and not be "deeply disturbed".

[Lief 🗽]

A college disciplinary hearing is not like a criminal case where a beyond reasonable doubt standard is necessary and appropriate. I'm not sure what you two don't understand about that, it's a pretty basic facet of our legal system.

Obviously if the DA wants to bring sexual assault charges, that would be a criminal matter but that has nothing to do with this bill.

[Lumine]

Thanks for making these polls, Lumine! They raise awareness about the kind of issues our Senators are focused on and they help citizens to form their own opinions - really useful.

As for the bill in question, disapprove. It's unworkable.

Glad to be of help, Zuwo, even if Windjammer and Griffin seem to have a problem with freedom of the press, xD

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

A college disciplinary hearing is not like a criminal case where a beyond reasonable doubt standard is necessary and appropriate. I'm not sure what you two don't understand about that, it's a pretty basic facet of our legal system.

Obviously if the DA wants to bring sexual assault charges, that would be a criminal matter but that has nothing to do with this bill.

Is the evidence presented to the DA at the end of the hearing? The concern is that it will be buried and like you said priority is getting them out of school, which whilst understandable there was an implication of "out of our hair, no longer our problem".

[Associate Justice PiT]

A college disciplinary hearing is not like a criminal case where a beyond reasonable doubt standard is necessary and appropriate. I'm not sure what you two don't understand about that, it's a pretty basic facet of our legal system.

Obviously if the DA wants to bring sexual assault charges, that would be a criminal matter but that has nothing to do with this bill.

Is the evidence presented to the DA at the end of the hearing? The concern is that it will be buried and like you said priority is getting them out of school, which whilst understandable there was an implication of "out of our hair, no longer our problem".

     For me, that is the clincher of why allowing universities to deal with this is unacceptable. If we have a violent rapist attacking women on campus, the effect of this framework will be merely to loose the culprit onto general society where more crimes can occur. The linchpin of my proposal is that the university has to relay the case to prosecutors. The university is grossly unequipped to handle a criminal accusation.

[DemPGH]

There are some problems with it, but it's being worked on. I'm uncomfortable with it very much but not ready to abandon it.

Glad to be of help, Zuwo, even if Windjammer and Griffin seem to have a problem with freedom of the press, xD

Yeah, any criticism of you or your tactics is an effort to SHUT DOWN YOUR PAPER!!! We never heard that before [/sarcasm].

[Barnes]

I'm glad to see that the Senate is working on the bill and holding an actual debate on this issue.

As SoIA, I will continue to push officeholders around the country to respond to and be in active in policy areas.  Incidentally, this subject is one where the regions and federal government can collaborate in interesting and productive ways to ensure the best possible solution - a process which I am very keen to have become the norm in Atlasia.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I'm glad to see that the Senate is working on the bill and holding an actual debate on this issue.

As SoIA, I will continue to push officeholders around the country to respond to and be in active in policy areas.  Incidentally, this subject is one where the regions and federal government can collaborate in interesting and productive ways to ensure the best possible solution - a process which I am very keen to have become the norm in Atlasia.

I am so glad to see I am being co-opted on this issue. For years it was me talking to the wall on this inter-gov't interaction.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I obviously don't think this is a problem that post-secondary institutions should have to deal with on their own, and fortunately the legislation in question doesn't do that. That being said, these are places where assault does have a greater incidence rate than elsewhere, and I do believe these institutions should take some responsibility in trying to combat it. If a person commits an assault on, at the very least, the property of the institution, the school should have the right to decide whether that is conduct they will allow among their students. If pressuring these institutions to take meaningful steps toward addressing the problem can help turn things around, I don't think it's something we should take off the table.

What's at issue, for me, is how to define consent and how deep the government should thrust itself into the bedrooms of private citizens. One thing the bill would do is regulate exactly how universities should judge and discipline individuals accused of rape. I'm thinking that's something we should probably remove. We should emphasize support, resources, and education instead, which I'm glad to see the bill already does to some extent.

Either way, I'm very confident we can actually find something that works. We all want to reduce sexual violence. We will pass a bill that aims to do that without causing additional problems elsewhere.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     With respect, Senator, I question whether this focus is even appropriate. As citizens and residents of the Republic of Atlasia and subject to the laws thereof, crimes committed on campus, from petty theft to sexual assault to homicide, are the business of all Atlasians and fall under the purview of the criminal justice system. Any determination made by the university is tangential to this fundamental issue.

     With respect, I question whether this focus is even effective. There exists a culture that promotes certain types of irresponsible behavior. We are seeking to address the behavior without addressing the culture, hoping against all odds that humans will cease to be products of their environment and instead rise above. I posit one thing -- that the system as structured is broken. As long as we refuse to address the root cause, college rape will continue to be rampant. We can increase expulsions and criminal convictions, but we cannot stop this by blithely pretending that there isn't a specific and obvious reason for why rape and sexual assault is so common on college campuses.

[Lief 🗽]

I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, but what exactly is this "root cause" you're alluding to? And the idea that this bill ignores "the culture" is ridiculous; the entire purpose of this bill is to change the culture. Just like 1950s-style marital rape is no longer appropriate, the point of legislation like this is to teach people and change norms, so that everyone understands that only sex where both partners are affirmatively and enthusiastically consenting should be appropriate.

And universities are in charge of disciplining their students all the time. I don't know why only when we get to rape people suddenly think universities should not be able to kick out or otherwise discipline students who pose a threat to the safety of their students and campus.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Intoxication leads to poor decision making, including criminal malfeasance. Intoxication impairs one's ability to give consent. There is a widespread campus culture glorifying the act of drinking, and I don't believe for a second that people drunk to the point of blackout will be worrying about "affirmative consent". What evidence is there that most students are even aware of disciplinary procedures? Any effort to address this problem without addressing that cause is a futile gesture creating the illusion of action.

     I have been quite clear that all crimes committed by students are police matters. Besides, the police are far better equipped to investigate these matters and the criminal justice system offers a well-developed framework for addressing issues of justice. If the university is to discipline them, it is only sensible to do so in piggybacking off of a proper criminal investigation.

[Lumine]

Results:

Approve - 20%
Disapprove - 80%
Undecided - 0%

Total Voters: 25

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Results:

Approve - 80%
Disapprove - 20%
Undecided - 0%

Total Voters: 25

you have that backwards.

[Lumine]

Results:

Approve - 80%
Disapprove - 20%
Undecided - 0%

Total Voters: 25

you have that backwards.

Mistake corrected!