Winter is Coming (GoT is back)

[Lief 🗽]

Which post-sex scene did you think would generate controversy?

Also Sansa better not get all her skin cut off by Ramsay... 😒

[Mr. Morden]

Which post-sex scene did you think would generate controversy?

Tommen/Margaery.  I know the actor is 17, but how old is his character supposed to be?  About 13?  I realize that in the feudal society that GoT is meant to represent, they didn't have anything like our current understanding of age of consent, and there would have been nothing remarkable to them about a kid marrying an adult and having sex like this, but this is usually something that gets whitewashed in fictional depictions on TV, and I'm actually kind of surprised that they went as far as they did: Showing partial nudity of Natalie Dormer (though at an angle at which the actor playing Tommen couldn't see it), and having Tommen talk about how much he loves sex.  I'm trying to think of a comparable scene from any other TV show, and I'm drawing a blank.

I'm wondering how the author of this column from last year will react:

http://www.thewrap.com/game-of-thrones-sex-with-kids/

[RI]

The reaction hasn't actually been that strong, probably because the leaks gave people time to get over these things.

[Lief 🗽]

Oh yeah, that scene really creeped me out. I just have to assume the writers aged Tommen up to his actor's age. I'm pretty sure in the book he's supposed to be like 9 or 10 years old.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I have to say, I'm very angry on Sansa's behalf, and a little worried about where the show will take certain elements of Margaery's plotline (and more than a little worried about where it's already taken her characterization to be honest). So much of what the show is doing at this point is just unnecessary and uncalled-for.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I'm trying to think of a comparable scene from any other TV show, and I'm drawing a blank.

Define 'comparable' (I mean I don't watch this show so I can't infer that accurately). Two things come to mind immediately though. In Cold Lazarus there is an extended sequence showing the memories of Daniel Feeld in which we see him as a boy (played alternatively by a child actor and Albert Finney dressed as a child) being attacked and raped by a tramp (and we also see his trauma afterwards and the trauma of the people who watched his memory. It's a bundle of laughs is Cold Lazarus),* while in Red Riding we see flashbacks of the young BJ about to be passed around a paedophile ring ("Mr Piggott is king today"). Of course both of those TV dramas were not created as Entertainment in the way that Game of Thrones is, which does arguably alter matters.

_{*Actually there is a lot of very funny things in it, but...}

[Lief 🗽]

I don't know if it's "comparable", but in Mad Men in one of the flashbacks Don Draper as a child loses his virginity to a prostitute. I forget how old he is supposed to be in that, but the show pretty heavily implies that that experience screwed him up sexually for the rest of his life.

[Mr. Morden]

Right, there are cases in other shows in which the show makes it pretty clear that the kid is a victim, or that it messed the kid up, but what struck me as unusual here is how "normal" they played it.  Now, like I said, I'm sure it was "normal" in the kind of society that the Game of Thrones is meant to recreate, but it's an aspect of history that TV usually glosses over.

And Lief, you really think the character is meant to be 17, like the actor?  The actor looks younger than he is, which I assume is part of why he was cast.  And he acts pretty immature for a 17 year old.  I'd guess the character is meant to be no older than 15 at the most.

[Lief 🗽]

Yeah, it's hard to tell. In seasons 1-3 the character was played by a much younger actor who looked like he was about 10, but then in season 4 they switched to the current guy (and I don't think more than a year or so has passed in the time of the show), though maybe they just retconned the age of the character from the earlier seasons. Before last night I definitely had the impression that he was supposed to be younger, still in his early or mid teens.

But if the people making the show did not intend him to be closer to his actor's age, then that's sort of creepy (even keeping mind Medieval differences in marriage age/consent age, which are themselves overblown/exaggerated). Then again, these are the same people who apparently had no idea that the "Jaime raping Cersei" scene last season would come off to viewers as rape, so who knows.

[RI]

The age of adulthood is 16 in the series, which Tommen has to be under or he could have named his own Hand. Tommen is likely either 14 or 15. Joffrey was supposed to be 19 in season 4 (officially 17 as of S2), so that age gap works and still gives room for Myrcella to be in the middle. Her new actress looks like she could be 16-17.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Now, like I said, I'm sure it was "normal" in the kind of society that the Game of Thrones is meant to recreate, but it's an aspect of history that TV usually glosses over.

Well it was (if only amongst arranged marriages in the aristocracy where brides, even when actual children, were sometimes as property that needed to be... um... seeded... as soon as possible, presumably because there were a lot of powerful paedophiles in those days as well: Margaret Beaufort was only thirteen when she gave birth to Henry Tudor for instance. The fact that she had no other children is not a coincidence), but not that way around in gender terms.

[MasterJedi]

In the books Tommen is like 9 or 10, they're obviously making him appear older for TV but he really is that young.

[badgate]

In the books Tommen is like 9 or 10, they're obviously making him appear older for TV but he really is that young.

He's not just appearing older on the show, they aged the character up. As they did with nearly every child character.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

It's also of plot relevance in the books that Margaery (who is about sixteen) could, conceivably, still be a virgin* at this point in the story, but that's low on the list of pointless and unnecessary deviations that the show has made.

*in straight terms because book-Margaery is implied to be sleeping with her ladies-in-waiting

[Gustaf]

I was a bit shocked at the Tommen-thing as well. What makes it worse is that they've made Margaery appear a lot more mature in the series. Book-Margaery (if memory serves) would have been young and immature enough that it wouldn't be very creepy for her to have sex with show-Tommen.

And yeah the Sansa thing is very worrying on several levels.

[Lurker]

How old is Margaery supposed to be in the show, anyway? Obviously not 16, but has her age ever been stated?

The actress is 33 - but can look considerably younger, so maybe they are going for early 20s or so?

[Mr. Morden]

The actress is 33 - but can look considerably younger, so maybe they are going for early 20s or so?

I would assume early 20s.  Or at least that she was supposed to be early 20s in Season 2, during her brief marriage to Renly, and then tack on however much time is supposed to have passed since then.  I mean, realistically, in that society, would many women of high social standing have gone deep into their 20s without marrying?

[Mr. Morden]

Also, with regard to Sansa…isn't it rather unrealistic that when Littlefinger explains the engagement to her, and tells her "We'll turn around and go back to the Vale if you don't want to go through with it", or whatever version of that he told her….that she didn't demand to know what his plan was, as a condition of her going through with it?

I mean, he clearly has *something* planned, given his "avenge them" comment.  That suggests that he's going to stab the Boltons in the back.  So why doesn't Sansa ask him to explain his plan, if he really wants her to go along with it?

It's a contrivance of storytelling that's rather common in TV.  It's more suspenseful to the audience if we don't know his plan right off the bat, so they're not going to have our point-of-view character ask about it.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I was a bit shocked at the Tommen-thing as well. What makes it worse is that they've made Margaery appear a lot more mature in the series. Book-Margaery (if memory serves) would have been young and immature enough that it wouldn't be very creepy for her to have sex with show-Tommen.

And yeah the Sansa thing is very worrying on several levels.

I'm pretty sure book-Margaery and show-Tommen are more or less exactly the same age, so yeah, that wouldn't be creepy.

Also, with regard to Sansa…isn't it rather unrealistic that when Littlefinger explains the engagement to her, and tells her "We'll turn around and go back to the Vale if you don't want to go through with it", or whatever version of that he told her….that she didn't demand to know what his plan was, as a condition of her going through with it?

I mean, he clearly has *something* planned, given his "avenge them" comment.  That suggests that he's going to stab the Boltons in the back.  So why doesn't Sansa ask him to explain his plan, if he really wants her to go along with it?

It's a contrivance of storytelling that's rather common in TV.  It's more suspenseful to the audience if we don't know his plan right off the bat, so they're not going to have our point-of-view character ask about it.

Book-Sansa probably would not feel comfortable asking book-Littlefinger, because their relationship is even creepier, and more based on fear (and, frankly, obvious pedophilic 'grooming'*), than in the show, but show-Sansa has become conniving and unsentimental enough, and has enough of a rapport with show-Littlefinger at this point, that you're right that there's really no excuse.

Then again, book-Littlefinger is in many ways more forthcoming with information with book-Sansa without her having to ask him. Book-Littlefinger would have told book-Sansa what he was doing, but not given her the option of saying no.

*book-Sansa is thirteen at this point

[badgate]

WHEW!! I had watched the screener for this episode weeks ago, but damn was it good to watch in High Def.

Those Sons of the Harpy masks are creepy as f*** when they're in a group. Kind of makes me glad they didn't incorporate the Brazen Beasts in the show; it'd be hard for the audience to trust that they're on Dany's side.

Sure as hell hoping Grey Worm and Ser Barristan at least survive for a few minutes in next week's episode so that we can properly say goodbye.

Sansa's scene in the crypt, especially when she bends down and picks up the feather that Robert had put in Lyanna's hand way back in the pilot, was one of my favorites of the episode. As well as Stannis and Shireen *starts crying again*

So excited to see a new episode next week xD

[Eraserhead]

Can't wait to (hopefully) see this Baratheon-Bolton showdown.

[RI]

Can't wait to (hopefully) see this Baratheon-Bolton showdown.

Hopefully they learned from GRRM's mistake of putting the climax of a story off until the next installment...

[badgate]

I like how they loosened the Meereeneese knot by simply cutting out the Ironborn.

[RI]

Spoilers for Episode 5.

[Likely Voter]

I was always unsure about the popular John mother theory until last week's episode.  Now I am convinced that is where the show is going.

They also seem to be really flying through the last two books. I could see them finishing most if not all of both AFFC and ADWD (including the stuff they are ignoring) by the end of the season.