Winter is Coming (GoT is back)

[7,052,770]

1. If it happens in the books, as online articles strongly implies it will, it's not a "shocking twist!!!1" at all, any more than the killings of Ned Stark or Robb Stark were.

2. Stannis has already been established as someone who has no qualms killing his brother, nor of burning hundreds of nonbelievers alive. He obviously had a lot of qualms about this, but he's a terrible human being, so it's not as out of character as some people are making it out to be.

3. A few internet articles are raising the same hope that I did that she's not really dead. It's really not comparable at all to the Ned Stark truthers -- Ned was clearly shown decapitated, and it was a well-established plot point in the books that sets up the action for the next few seasons. There was just no way they could even have a show without killing off Ned.

Until we see a body, I have hope. Maybe the greyscale helped. Or maybe Melisandre used some magic to make it appear that she burned Shireen alive, but she didn't really. Or maybe Stannis stopped the whole thing after the scene cut away.

[Mr. Morden]

3. A few internet articles are raising the same hope that I did that she's not really dead.

That's what I was wondering.  The story that Shireen was reading in her book, that she then summarized to Davos.  I think it went something like this:

---
A knight polishes his shield before going to battle with a dragon, in the hope that the shield will act as a mirror, and fool the dragon.  But the dragon recognizes that it's just a knight with a shield, and burns him anyway.
---

That seems like it had to be foreshadowing…something or other.  Are they actually trying to fool the Lord of Light or something, creating an illusion of a burning Shireen? That seems weird, but so does the decision to burn her in the first place.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm finally getting around to watching season 5! Just watched episode 2. Definitely off to a good start, though I get the feeling that there will be just as much blood and tragic losses as in the previous two...

[Mr. Morden]

Does Stannis have any cousins or anything?  Unless the Shireen burning was a big illusion, I feel like Stannis has got to be doomed now.  He'll probably get offed by Brienne, or something.  So who inherits the throne (in the eyes of the Baratheon supporters) if Stannis is dead?  Would it fall to Gendry, even though he's a bastard?  Will Season 6 be "The Search for Gendry"?

I'm not completely on the Stannis hate train. I loved Shireen, but consider the larger picture. R'hllor is as good as confirmed...

R'hllor is confirmed, but he seems rather inconsistent about what kind of sacrifices he demands.  One day, you can just have the king have sex with a priestess, and it gives you an assassin smoke monster.  The next day, you can kill two out of three usurpers just by drawing some blood from (but not killing) a bastard with kingsblood.  Why weren't leeches for Shireen, rather than death, good enough to stop a snow storm?  Also, what does this even get them?  Help through the snow so that they can win the next battle?  Will that battle end the war, and secure the throne for Stannis?  No, there's no indication that it does.  It just helps them with this next battle I guess, after which there'll presumably be a whole new set of problems.  Hardly seems worth becoming a monster over.

In any case, with Stannis and the Boltons now irredeemingly bad, I hope they just club each other to death, before the knights of the Vale march in to squash whoever's left from the Baratheon-Bolton conflict, and rescue Sansa.  Believe it or not, the hero in the story is now this fellow:

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Does Stannis have any cousins or anything?  Unless the Shireen burning was a big illusion, I feel like Stannis has got to be doomed now.  He'll probably get offed by Brienne, or something.  So who inherits the throne (in the eyes of the Baratheon supporters) if Stannis is dead?  Would it fall to Gendry, even though he's a bastard?  Will Season 6 be "The Search for Gendry"?

I'm not completely on the Stannis hate train. I loved Shireen, but consider the larger picture. R'hllor is as good as confirmed...

R'hllor is confirmed, but he seems rather inconsistent about what kind of sacrifices he demands.  One day, you can just have the king have sex with a priestess, and it gives you an assassin smoke monster.  The next day, you can kill two out of three usurpers just by drawing some blood from (but not killing) a bastard with kingsblood.  Why weren't leeches for Shireen, rather than death, good enough to stop a snow storm?  Also, what does this even get them?  Help through the snow so that they can win the next battle?  Will that battle end the war, and secure the throne for Stannis?  No, there's no indication that it does.  It just helps them with this next battle I guess, after which there'll presumably be a whole new set of problems.  Hardly seems worth becoming a monster over.

In any case, with Stannis and the Boltons now irredeemingly bad, I hope they just club each other to death, before the knights of the Vale march in to squash whoever's left from the Baratheon-Bolton conflict, and rescue Sansa.  Believe it or not, the hero in the story is now this fellow:

Ugh, Littlefinger is worse than the Boltons or Stannis.

[7,052,770]

This could be a spoiler, but I don't know anything so I don't intend it to be:

Doesn't book Melisandre use illusion magic to appear to burn another character but not really do it? Could the show have recast that scene onto Shireen?

[Dereich]

I doubt it; appearing to burn Shireen causes many more problems than it solves: the stand-in wouldn't have king's blood so there's less advantage from R'hllor and the army is demoralized by seeing the heir to the throne burned alive. No, it was definitely her.

As for the Baratheon heir after Shireen; I guess it'd be Gendry or another of Robert's bastards. Otherwise it'd have to be some obscure Baratheon cousin never mentioned in the books or the show. However, I don't see Stannis being that big on legitimizing Robert's bastards....It's one of the biggest problems I have with him doing this to Shireen.

[Cory]

This is an interesting take on Stannis I found on the Game Of Thrones on HBO subreddit that I think sums up his character quite succinctly:

All your life you want to be noble, loved, and a hero. Then someone tells you that you actually are destined to be the hero and the king. It all seems great at first but it turns out being the hero doesn't mean you get to be loved. In fact now you have to start doing some pretty dark sh**t. You're burning people for hell's sake! But you're meant to be king, this god whose power you have seen says that you have to do these things. Then suddenly you're about to execute the one person who really respects and cares for you, he's one of your best friends. And then in this crazy quick sequence of events he's your hand, you're now destined to be a hero that will fight off a threat to the North, and you're heading to the Wall. You're starting to doubt yourself and honestly you're afraid but you have to do this it's your destiny.

So now you've preserved the Night's Watch but you see how weak they really are. You realize you need to be king to stop what your trusted adviser says is coming. So you head South and things start to go to sh**t. You're in a hurry but you're moving so slow. And then tragedy happens... you're attacked in the night. Things are falling apart. Then this offer comes. A promise of victory. A sacrifice, the biggest one you've ever made, for a win. At this point you don't doubt this lord of light. All you really doubt is yourself. But this is your destiny, to be the hero. You don't even want to be the hero anymore. But you have to. To save everyone. You know none of them will appreciate you. And now you're going to kill her. Your daughter. Your only child. And she's screaming at you to stop. But you, Stannis Baratheon, you are Iron. And Iron does not bend. You apply pressure until it shatters, until it breaks. And God you are so close to breaking. Selyse is gone now, she's trying to stop it. Your soldiers are looking at you like a monster. But you don't care. You only care about her and she's gone but it meant something... it had to. You're going to win now. You know this. You have to save them all.

Now this is why I love Stannis. And the saddest part is that he will never be the hero in the end. He's not the savior. Mel is either blind or lying. Eventually he will learn this and that moment... that is when the iron shatters.

In Stannis's eyes he has to do these things because he is the only one who can save Westeros from the White Walkers. He's delusional but he's a sincere True Believer.

Truth be told Stannis Baratheon is probably the most complex and personally interesting  character in the show at this point. They need to stop wasting screen-time with Arya and have the finale be mostly about the battle of Winterfell. If they don't get to it I'm gonna be very let down. I mean c'mon are they seriously gonna make everyone wait basically a year for it?

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

This is an interesting take on Stannis I found on the Game Of Thrones on HBO subreddit that I think sums up his character quite succinctly:

All your life you want to be noble, loved, and a hero. Then someone tells you that you actually are destined to be the hero and the king. It all seems great at first but it turns out being the hero doesn't mean you get to be loved. In fact now you have to start doing some pretty dark sh**t. You're burning people for hell's sake! But you're meant to be king, this god whose power you have seen says that you have to do these things. Then suddenly you're about to execute the one person who really respects and cares for you, he's one of your best friends. And then in this crazy quick sequence of events he's your hand, you're now destined to be a hero that will fight off a threat to the North, and you're heading to the Wall. You're starting to doubt yourself and honestly you're afraid but you have to do this it's your destiny.

So now you've preserved the Night's Watch but you see how weak they really are. You realize you need to be king to stop what your trusted adviser says is coming. So you head South and things start to go to sh**t. You're in a hurry but you're moving so slow. And then tragedy happens... you're attacked in the night. Things are falling apart. Then this offer comes. A promise of victory. A sacrifice, the biggest one you've ever made, for a win. At this point you don't doubt this lord of light. All you really doubt is yourself. But this is your destiny, to be the hero. You don't even want to be the hero anymore. But you have to. To save everyone. You know none of them will appreciate you. And now you're going to kill her. Your daughter. Your only child. And she's screaming at you to stop. But you, Stannis Baratheon, you are Iron. And Iron does not bend. You apply pressure until it shatters, until it breaks. And God you are so close to breaking. Selyse is gone now, she's trying to stop it. Your soldiers are looking at you like a monster. But you don't care. You only care about her and she's gone but it meant something... it had to. You're going to win now. You know this. You have to save them all.

Now this is why I love Stannis. And the saddest part is that he will never be the hero in the end. He's not the savior. Mel is either blind or lying. Eventually he will learn this and that moment... that is when the iron shatters.

In Stannis's eyes he has to do these things because he is the only one who can save Westeros from the White Walkers. He's delusional but he's a sincere True Believer.

Truth be told Stannis Baratheon is probably the most complex and personally interesting  character in the show at this point. They need to stop wasting screen-time with Arya and have the finale be mostly about the battle of Winterfell. If they don't get to it I'm gonna be very let down. I mean c'mon are they seriously gonna make everyone wait basically a year for it?

If you're worried about having to wait a year for a battle, don't read the books.

[Mr. Morden]

Another thought on Stannis:

In Episode 8, Theon says to Sansa that he (Theon) "deserves" everything that happened to him, before listing all of his crimes, including killing those two innocent farm boys.  Given what Stannis did just one episode later, is this foreshadowing some horrible fate for Stannis?

[Mr. Morden]

The Season 5 soundtrack is out.  I don't think we've heard these two tracks on the show yet, so they're probably in the finale (the latter one has got to be the end credits music, doesn't it?):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdjfNK4D81s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxtO2mKY6QI

[Lief 🗽]

This is a good blog post I found about why the Stannis storyline is really dumb: http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/121016611972/no-this-wont-happen-in-the-books

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[7,052,770]

I think characters like Joffrey and Ramsey have blinded people to the fact that Stannis is a supremely sh**tty guy too. In "normal" tv shows, Stannis would be the big villain of the show -- he's already killed his own brother (a huge taboo in the Westeros world) and has been burning people alive for 4 seasons.

Stannis has always been a morally repugnant character. Not as over-the-top about it as Joffrey and Ramsey, but still a completely terrible person. Let's not pretend like he was this upstanding guy that whose character was assassinated out of the blue by the writers.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I think characters like Joffrey and Ramsey have blinded people to the fact that Stannis is a supremely sh**tty guy too. In "normal" tv shows, Stannis would be the big villain of the show -- he's already killed his own brother (a huge taboo in the Westeros world) and has been burning people alive for 4 seasons.

Stannis has always been a morally repugnant character. Not as over-the-top about it as Joffrey and Ramsey, but still a completely terrible person. Let's not pretend like he was this upstanding guy that whose character was assassinated out of the blue by the writers.

There is definitely some truth to this.

[badgate]

This is a good blog post I found about why the Stannis storyline is really dumb: http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/121016611972/no-this-wont-happen-in-the-books

You must be logged in to read this quote.

OH GOD. Next thing I know you're going to be posting theculturalvacuum's unintelligible rants.

Both of these posters are unreasonable book snobs who have this season taken criticism of the show to illogical levels.

[badgate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxtO2mKY6QI

I love this one! Something tells me all those vocal covers of the theme song inspired Ramin Djawadi.

[Lief 🗽]

This is a good blog post I found about why the Stannis storyline is really dumb: http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/121016611972/no-this-wont-happen-in-the-books

You must be logged in to read this quote.

OH GOD. Next thing I know you're going to be posting theculturalvacuum's unintelligible rants.

Both of these posters are unreasonable book snobs who have this season taken criticism of the show to illogical levels.

I don't really care about the books, which I have not read. I care about the television show, which used to be a good show but is increasingly poorly written and prioritizing SHOCKING TWISTS and torturing fan favorite characters over good storytelling.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

This is a good blog post I found about why the Stannis storyline is really dumb: http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/121016611972/no-this-wont-happen-in-the-books

You must be logged in to read this quote.

OH GOD. Next thing I know you're going to be posting theculturalvacuum's unintelligible rants.

Both of these posters are unreasonable book snobs who have this season taken criticism of the show to illogical levels.

I don't really care about the books, which I have not read. I care about the television show, which used to be a good show but is increasingly poorly written and prioritizing SHOCKING TWISTS and torturing fan favorite characters over good storytelling.

I couldn't disagree with you more on that one.  Good writing mean you can't have "shocking twists" (ex: the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, Ned's death, Tywin's death, etc ).  Furthermore, in hindsight Shireen being burned by Stannis under these circumstances shouldn't have been that surprising and it certainly wasn't out of character for Stannis given the situation he was in.  It was tragic, horrifying, and probably the hardest scene to watch in the show's history to date.  However, it was incredibly well-done and there was nothing gratuitous about it.  I don't see how you can criticize it as bad storytelling, plus Martin apparently confirmed that this will happen in one of the future books, so it certainly isn't D&D's fault even if one believes it to be bad storytelling.

[7,052,770]

I don't really care about the books, which I have not read. I care about the television show, which used to be a good show but is increasingly poorly written and prioritizing SHOCKING TWISTS and torturing fan favorite characters over good storytelling.

Again, how can something that was extensively foreshadowed and predicted by several people on this very thread be "SHOCKING TWIST?"

[Gustaf]

I'm not completely on the Stannis hate train. I loved Shireen, but consider the larger picture. R'hllor is as good as confirmed, and because of Ramsay's (ridiculous) raid, not only might Stannis fail to capture Winterfell, but if he is Azor Ahai as Mel says, then his failure also means the end of the world. If he loses, who mines the dragonglass? What other ruler in Westeros gives a rip about the coming White Walker invasion?

The rub is he's probably not Azor Ahai, though he probably leads Mel to the real Azor Ahai.

The show's choices for the throne are now a Lannister puppet, a man who just murdered his daughter for a small advantage or Dany.

Except, of course, the one person who may have a better claim than any of them and who probably is Azor Ahai.

Yeah, can't recall how obvious it is in the show but the books see pretty clear on who is Azor Ahai.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

I'm not completely on the Stannis hate train. I loved Shireen, but consider the larger picture. R'hllor is as good as confirmed, and because of Ramsay's (ridiculous) raid, not only might Stannis fail to capture Winterfell, but if he is Azor Ahai as Mel says, then his failure also means the end of the world. If he loses, who mines the dragonglass? What other ruler in Westeros gives a rip about the coming White Walker invasion?

The rub is he's probably not Azor Ahai, though he probably leads Mel to the real Azor Ahai.

The show's choices for the throne are now a Lannister puppet, a man who just murdered his daughter for a small advantage or Dany.

Except, of course, the one person who may have a better claim than any of them and who probably is Azor Ahai.

Yeah, can't recall how obvious it is in the show but the books see pretty clear on who is Azor Ahai.

His plot armor should be enough of a giveaway frankly.

[RI]

Some pics from E10 have started to leak, including one showing the death of a character alive in the books and a post-FTW shot.

[Mr. Morden]

This is great:

[The Other Castro]

Some pics from E10 have started to leak, including one showing the death of a character alive in the books and a post-FTW shot.

Spoiler response: The first picture with him bleeding out seems legit, but the 2nd picture of him warging appears fake.

[Mr. Morden]

The "previously on" segment that'll play before the credits at the beginning of the finale has leaked onto Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1btOBSM9mrk

It hints at the possible return of a character we haven't seen this season, so people who really want to go into the episode cold might want to skip this when they watch it.