Winter is Coming (GoT is back)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 05:32:29 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Forum Community
  Off-topic Board (Moderators: The Dowager Mod, The Mikado, YE)
  Winter is Coming (GoT is back)
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 ... 29
Author Topic: Winter is Coming (GoT is back)  (Read 56550 times)
Cory
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,709


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #200 on: June 15, 2015, 11:13:40 PM »

I've only seen two episodes of this show, since I'm poor.  Sad

So am I, but it's widely available online for free. Just google it. That's how I watched basically the entire series.
Logged
Mr. Morden
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 44,073
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #201 on: June 18, 2015, 08:23:51 AM »

I can't get over how dumb the Sand Snakes plot was (thanks Obara).

I suppose we're going to get more of them next season in some capacity?  I doubt we'll see much of Dorne itself next year, since I don't think anyone left there is significant enough to serve as a point-of-view character.  But I imagine that Ellaria and/or the Sand Snakes will flee Dorne and infect other storylines, since staying there will risk re-arrest and execution by Doran?
Logged
Chancellor Tanterterg
Mr. X
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 26,201
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #202 on: June 18, 2015, 11:53:58 AM »

I can't get over how dumb the Sand Snakes plot was (thanks Obara).

I suppose we're going to get more of them next season in some capacity?  I doubt we'll see much of Dorne itself next year, since I don't think anyone left there is significant enough to serve as a point-of-view character.  But I imagine that Ellaria and/or the Sand Snakes will flee Dorne and infect other storylines, since staying there will risk re-arrest and execution by Doran?


I doubt it, but that could be wishful thinking.
Logged
Mr. Morden
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 44,073
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #203 on: July 10, 2015, 07:33:21 AM »

Comic Con is on this week, and I guess there's going to be a Game of Thrones panel later today.  Last year, they used Comic Con to make a slew of casting announcements for Season 5, so maybe we'll get something for Season 6 this year.
Logged
The Other Castro
Castro2020
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,230
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #204 on: July 10, 2015, 05:59:04 PM »

I can't get over how dumb the Sand Snakes plot was (thanks Obara).

I suppose we're going to get more of them next season in some capacity?  I doubt we'll see much of Dorne itself next year, since I don't think anyone left there is significant enough to serve as a point-of-view character.  But I imagine that Ellaria and/or the Sand Snakes will flee Dorne and infect other storylines, since staying there will risk re-arrest and execution by Doran?


I think Doran was in on their plan, he seemed to acknowledge Ellaria with approval when she poison-kissed Myrcella. On the ship, my guess is that it's being controlled by Dornish men who will take Jamie, Bronn, and Trystane to Mereen instead of Kings Landing (might kill off Bronn). The plan is to marry Trystane to Danaerys and assist her in taking the throne, making Trystane King Consort while also offering Jamie (the man that killed her father) as a gift of good faith to Danaerys. Instead, there is an awkward reunion between Jamie and Tyrion.
Logged
Chancellor Tanterterg
Mr. X
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 26,201
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #205 on: July 10, 2015, 09:50:56 PM »

Comic Con is on this week, and I guess there's going to be a Game of Thrones panel later today.  Last year, they used Comic Con to make a slew of casting announcements for Season 5, so maybe we'll get something for Season 6 this year.


And we got...absolutely no remotely interesting news Sad
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #206 on: July 13, 2015, 01:24:54 PM »

As usual, I'm a bit late to the party, and couldn't comment on the episodes as they came out (blame it on my Master's Thesis Tongue). Still, if anyone's interested, here's my two cents on this last season.

Despite how disappointed I was with the final two episodes, it was still a solid season - probably stronger than the 4th, on average. It started off really good - the King's Landing plot was really captivating, and even the two traditionally boring storylines (the Wall and Daenerys) were surprisingly quite interesting. In the first case, I can't say no to a good election/campaign story. Tongue And seeing Janos Slynt's head chopped off was worth waiting for. Plus, I really enjoyed the Jon/Stannis interactions, there are a few really poignant moments. As for Daenerys, at least there is something actually happening this season. The concept of an underground rebellion of former slaveholders makes sense, even though the Sons of the Harpy are pretty ridiculously overpowered. As for the KL storyline, I really loved how it added a new player to a game which had lost many lately (Joffrey, Tyrion, Tywin...). Having a religious "revival" movement makes a lot of sense in light of the economic and social context. And it's handled with surprising subtlety, with the High Sparrow being depicted as a genuinely humble and soft spoken man who nonetheless proves utterly ruthless.

The two storylines that were annoying from the get-go were the Dorne one and Tyrion-Jorah's tribulations. The first one is a complete Idiot Plot from the very beginning. Seriously, Jaime, you're going to risk getting killed or held hostage (hence singificantly weakening your family's position towards Dorne) in order to rescue your daughter from a danger you only assume exists? "Fortunately", his stupidity is offset by the stupidity of the Dornish themselves. Ellaria and Doran sound like the caricatures of what warmongers and appeasers think each other is. Ellaria, I understand you're sad, but Oberyn's death is Oberyn's fault alone, and killing an innocent child won't make him come back! Doran, you have two friggin' Lannister hostages! How about you use this position of favor to exact concessions from King's Landing, instead of sending both of them back for essentially nothing? Seriously, everybody in this story is a f**king idiot.

But what really saddens me is that even the genuinely good stories go to sh*t in the last two episodes. Take King's Landing: from the point Cersei is captured, we see absolutely nothing of what's actually going on there. We are only told, in vague terms, that Tommen is making a nervous breakdown, Kevan is back in charge and the Sparrows effectively rule the city. Wouldn't it have been nice to actually see some of these things? But nooooo, instead we get scene after scene of what amounts to Cersei torture porn which doesn't advance the story in any way, culminating with that "walk of shame" debacle. I've been willing to cut GoT some slack for its keenness on sex, violence, and sexual violence, but that was unbearable. Besides, it doesn't even make sense story-wise. Does the High Sparrow seriously think Cersei is going to come back to him for the trial after he lets her into the Red Keep, instead of frantically preparing her vengeance? What a dull resolution for a genuinely great concept.

Then, there's Stannis. Look, I could buy that in particularly desperate circumstances, if he was absolutely 100% convinced that they were all going to die unless he did that, he could have accepted to sacrifice Shireen. He is pragmatic and determined, so he can make hard choices for what he believes is the "greater good". But we never see him reaching this level of desperation. Stannis would try everything else before burning Shireen, he would have his soldiers eat their comrades' dead bodies, or try some strategic maneuver before resorting to that. A besides, if R'hllor really wanted Stannis to do that, why did he abandon him right afterwards? Is the implication that Melisandre lied to him? That she suddenly realized she was wrong about the prophecy? Anyway, Stannis was one of my favorite characters, and they treated him like sh*t. Just like Tywin last season, he deserved a more dignified end. Although to be fair, I do like his actual death scene, he comes across as pretty badass, and the way he ends up accepting his fate is pretty damn cool. And obviously, it's poetic justice to have Brienne swing the sword.

I'm not as pissed about Jon's death as I am about the resolution of the Dorne, KL, and Stannis plots. It does make a good deal of sense that the Watch would react like that, even if it's unbelievably stupid in hindsight. Still, a question remains: why would they even open the gates to Jon and the wildlings in the first place? Honestly, I was expecting them not to. It would have made sense for Thorne to just say "screw you", and most people would have sided with him. But when they have opened the gates, the harm is already done, so why change their minds and kill Jon? This is only the last of a series of weird plot holes that marked this season.


OK, so I ended up talking mostly about the negative stuff, but most of it happens in the last two episodes, and the rest of the season is pretty consistently good. The pacing is definitely much improved compared to season 4's, and it keeps me wanting to know what comes next. Hopefully, the new directors will work harder to come up with satisfactory resolutions for their stories, and avoid derailing their characters for plot convenience.

Oh, and BTW, the Arya storyline is good too (though very depressing for an Arya fan Sad). And I'm really curious to see Littlefinger's next move.
Logged
Chancellor Tanterterg
Mr. X
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 26,201
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #207 on: July 13, 2015, 05:53:15 PM »

Part I (because yes, I actually exceeded the maximum allowable length of 11,000 characters, I need a hobby Sad )

As usual, I'm a bit late to the party, and couldn't comment on the episodes as they came out (blame it on my Master's Thesis Tongue). Still, if anyone's interested, here's my two cents on this last season.

Despite how disappointed I was with the final two episodes, it was still a solid season - probably stronger than the 4th, on average.
 Obviously, this is highly subjective, but I'd argue the last episode was among the show's all-time best and the ninth was pretty good too.

It started off really good - the King's Landing plot was really captivating, and even the two traditionally boring storylines (the Wall and Daenerys) were surprisingly quite interesting. In the first case, I can't say no to a good election/campaign story. Tongue And seeing Janos Slynt's head chopped off was worth waiting for. Plus, I really enjoyed the Jon/Stannis interactions, there are a few really poignant moments. As for Daenerys, at least there is something actually happening this season. The concept of an underground rebellion of former slaveholders makes sense, even though the Sons of the Harpy are pretty ridiculously overpowered. As for the KL storyline, I really loved how it added a new player to a game which had lost many lately (Joffrey, Tyrion, Tywin...). Having a religious "revival" movement makes a lot of sense in light of the economic and social context. And it's handled with surprising subtlety, with the High Sparrow being depicted as a genuinely humble and soft spoken man who nonetheless proves utterly ruthless.

I pretty much agree with all of this.

The two storylines that were annoying from the get-go were the Dorne one and Tyrion-Jorah's tribulations. The first one is a complete Idiot Plot from the very beginning. Seriously, Jaime, you're going to risk getting killed or held hostage (hence singificantly weakening your family's position towards Dorne) in order to rescue your daughter from a danger you only assume exists? "Fortunately", his stupidity is offset by the stupidity of the Dornish themselves. Ellaria and Doran sound like the caricatures of what warmongers and appeasers think each other is. Ellaria, I understand you're sad, but Oberyn's death is Oberyn's fault alone, and killing an innocent child won't make him come back! Doran, you have two friggin' Lannister hostages! How about you use this position of favor to exact concessions from King's Landing, instead of sending both of them back for essentially nothing? Seriously, everybody in this story is a f**king idiot.

Dorne is terrible in the books and it's terrible in the show.  I agree that Tyrion-Jorah was kinda boring (except the fight with the stone men, which was awesome), but it could have been so much worse.  Tyrion's FeastDance storyline is Dorne-level awful, so I can't complain too much since it didn't feel like that much of a drag.

But what really saddens me is that even the genuinely good stories go to sh*t in the last two episodes. Take King's Landing: from the point Cersei is captured, we see absolutely nothing of what's actually going on there. We are only told, in vague terms, that Tommen is making a nervous breakdown, Kevan is back in charge and the Sparrows effectively rule the city. Wouldn't it have been nice to actually see some of these things? But nooooo, instead we get scene after scene of what amounts to Cersei torture porn which doesn't advance the story in any way, culminating with that "walk of shame" debacle. I've been willing to cut GoT some slack for its keenness on sex, violence, and sexual violence, but that was unbearable. Besides, it doesn't even make sense story-wise. Does the High Sparrow seriously think Cersei is going to come back to him for the trial after he lets her into the Red Keep, instead of frantically preparing her vengeance? What a dull resolution for a genuinely great concept.

Why waste time showing Tommen being as incompetent and helpless as he's always been (the kid who plays him does a good job and ShowTommen is definitely better than BookTommen, but still, what would you want to cut from episodes eight and nine so that we could get that)?  As for the Small Council stuff, Kevan and Pycelle are no Tyrion and Varys.  I don't think it'd have been that interesting, tbh, certainly not entertaining (especially given that there is basically no one left to oppose them).    

The stuff with Cersei being denied water and told to confess certainly wasn't torture porn.  If they wanted torture porn they would've shown Qyburn vivisecting a bunch of living, unanesthetized people with a razor blade for fun like he does in AFFC.  The point of those scenes was showing Cersei gradually break down (at least partially).  

As for the Walk of Shame, that was probably one of the better scenes the show has done and I'm shocked that they were able to pull it off without it being even remotely gratuitous.  That was a horrific thing and very much in line with how medieval Christianity would've dealt with something like what Cersei confessed to.  As for the High Sparrow, yeah, I do think he thought Cersei would effectively be broken by the Walk of Shame and it probably would've worked were she a weaker-willed individual.  More importantly, it completely obliterates the perception among the smallfolk (who are essentially the Sparrow's political base) that she is someone to be feared while also communicating in no uncertain terms that the Sparrows rather than the political elites (be they Cersei, Kevan, the Tyrells, etc).  It's hard to still view someone as a person to be feared if you've seen them paraded through the streets naked with people throwing crap and yelling things like "brotherf**ker" at them.  Is the Walk of Shame an incredibly misogynistic concept?  Of course, but the High Sparrows are clearly modeled of off the medieval Catholic Church, so that kinda comes with the territory, no?  Plus, I don't know that Cersei (or Kevan) have enough power at this point for her not to return for the trial.  Cersei's incompetence unleashed a monster and now she's trapped in a prison of her own making.  Although I'm almost willing to bet money that she'll win her trial by combat due to FrankenGregor (who the Sparrows obviously have no way of knowing about).  

If you're really interested, there's actually some strong textual evidence in ADWD to suggest that the Walk of Shame was Kevan's idea rather than the High Sparrow's (although I'm sure he loved the idea).https://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/2015/07/04/the-lions-shadow-why-kevan-lannister-doesnt-deserve-his-good-rep/

Then, there's Stannis. Look, I could buy that in particularly desperate circumstances, if he was absolutely 100% convinced that they were all going to die unless he did that, he could have accepted to sacrifice Shireen. He is pragmatic and determined, so he can make hard choices for what he believes is the "greater good". But we never see him reaching this level of desperation. Stannis would try everything else before burning Shireen, he would have his soldiers eat their comrades' dead bodies, or try some strategic maneuver before resorting to that. A besides, if R'hllor really wanted Stannis to do that, why did he abandon him right afterwards? Is the implication that Melisandre lied to him? That she suddenly realized she was wrong about the prophecy? Anyway, Stannis was one of my favorite characters, and they treated him like sh*t.

I'd argue that (along with the Arya storyline and the battle of Hardhome), Stannis' storyline was one of the best things about this season.  Stannis was and still is one of my favorite characters, and I was disappointed (to say the least Tongue ) that he burned Shireen too, but the thing is that he has always been right on the edge of being a villain (along with Joffrey, he was basically the co-Big Bad of season 2).  Yes, he did save the Wall, but he also murdered his brother, burned a bunch of people alive, burned Mance Rayder alive because he wouldn't pledge fealty to him, wanted to burn his nephew alive for a blood magic ritual, has made Rasputin Melisandre his most trusted advisor, etc.  Stannis is a very complex character, but he is not a good person, even by the standards of the ASOIF universe.  I'd also take serious issue with anyone describing Stannis as a pragmatist given that the whole reason he has basically got a 0% approval rating at the start of season two is that he's one of the less pragmatic characters out there.  Stannis also consistently displayed some pretty serious messianic delusions, even during his better moments.

TL;DR: If you look at Stannis and how he's behaved throughout the series, it actually isn't that surprising in hindsight that his story culminated with burning his daughter alive (i.e. going full-Agammemnon).  I get that he's a great character and people want him to come down on the "good side" in the end, but this just isn't that sort of story (thank God).

Just like Tywin last season, he deserved a more dignified end.

Tywin was probably one of the last people who deserved a dignified end.  As awesome a character/villain as ShowTywin is (bookTywin isn't as interesting imo), he's a horrible, horrible, horrible person by any remotely objective measure.  I really like that he died on the toilet because it's an awesome visual pun (sort of).  Tywin is a sh!t, you see Tongue
Logged
Chancellor Tanterterg
Mr. X
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 26,201
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #208 on: July 13, 2015, 06:19:42 PM »
« Edited: July 13, 2015, 06:21:51 PM by Winter has come »

Although to be fair, I do like his actual death scene, he comes across as pretty badass, and the way he ends up accepting his fate is pretty damn cool. And obviously, it's poetic justice to have Brienne swing the sword.

At least we agree on this Tongue

I'm not as pissed about Jon's death as I am about the resolution of the Dorne, KL, and Stannis plots. It does make a good deal of sense that the Watch would react like that, even if it's unbelievably stupid in hindsight. Still, a question remains: why would they even open the gates to Jon and the wildlings in the first place? Honestly, I was expecting them not to. It would have made sense for Thorne to just say "screw you", and most people would have sided with him. But when they have opened the gates, the harm is already done, so why change their minds and kill Jon? This is only the last of a series of weird plot holes that marked this season.

Here's my solution: Don't have Alliser Thorne participate in et tu Olly Tongue  He was a much more interesting and complex character before that.

OK, so I ended up talking mostly about the negative stuff, but most of it happens in the last two episodes, and the rest of the season is pretty consistently good. The pacing is definitely much improved compared to season 4's, and it keeps me wanting to know what comes next. Hopefully, the new directors will work harder to come up with satisfactory resolutions for their stories, and avoid derailing their characters for plot convenience.

I'd argue season four was the best to date and had excellent pacing, but I suppose that's rather subjective.

Oh, and BTW, the Arya storyline is good too (though very depressing for an Arya fan Sad).

Arya's storyline was excellent and all the more impressive given that it is among the weaker ones during the section of the books covered by season five.  I'd add that the person who plays her really deserves an Emmy for this season even though she probably won't even be nominated Sad  It did end on a down note (although it was nice to see her stab the living f*** out of Ser Meryn, couldn't have happened to a nicer guy Tongue ), but as a book reader, it certainly wasn't depressing.  In the books, it's more of an open question until the very end whether she's been indoctrinated by the Faceless Men to the point that Arya is quickly becoming replaced with "no one."  I'm glad they didn't go that route here because those were some really depressing chapters!  Imo at least, there was never any serious danger that ShowArya was going to simply fade away into "No One" and this made it much, much easier to enjoy that storyline.

And I'm really curious to see Littlefinger's next move.

Hopefully it involves dying Tongue  Man, I hate that guy!  And not in a love to hate way like with Joffrey either Tongue  When you think about it, Littlefinger is either directly or indirectly responsible for about 80% of the bad things that happen in the series.
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #209 on: July 14, 2015, 08:43:11 AM »

Dorne is terrible in the books and it's terrible in the show.  I agree that Tyrion-Jorah was kinda boring (except the fight with the stone men, which was awesome), but it could have been so much worse.  Tyrion's FeastDance storyline is Dorne-level awful, so I can't complain too much since it didn't feel like that much of a drag.

Glad we agree on Dorne at least. Tongue

I'm not really factoring in the books in my judgment, both because I haven't read them (duh!) and because I think the show should stand on its on - especially at this stage when, from what I understand, the show has already clearly taken many liberties from the books. I'm actually considering starting the books now, even though the realization that GRRM will probably never finish them is holding me back.


Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Why? Because it helps set the context and atmosphere of King's Landing politics. What I love about Game of Thrones is its way of combining complex and unique characters with a deep exploration of the complexity of power struggles and maneuvering that they engage into in order to gain power and/or reach their goals. In this season, I feel that this second element has been lacking in the second half of this show. I was genuinely interested in seeing how Tommen, Kevan and Pycelle would all struggle to keep control of the situation in the increasing instability. For Tommen, I did expect a bit more from him honestly, although I understand why he would melt down after losing the two women of his life. As for Kevan, we've barely ever seen him so far, so I've no idea if he is an interesting character or not. For what little we saw of him, he seemed worth a shot. And anyway, even if they're not going to show anything from inside the Red Keep, they could at least give us a glimpse of the Sparrows basically running the city. We mostly saw them in the early stages, raiding the brothels and stuff, but I was just curious to see what KL looks like now.


Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't object to the scenes per se, I just think they end up taking too much time away from more relevant aspects. I think one scene of Cersei being told to confess and subsequently humiliated - rather than the three successive ones we got - would have been enough. Same for the Walk of Shame: I have nothing against the concept (story-wise, I mean), and it makes perfect sense that the Sparrows would use it as a tool to cement their authority and stir up the masses against Cersei. But the scene drags waaaaay too long, to the point when it becomes genuinely unnerving. I had to look away at the screen a couple times because I was ashamed of watching this (even though there wasn't anybody around me). I distinctly got the feeling that the creators were indulging themselves here. As Madeleine said earlier in this thread, there is a streak of mean-spiritedness in this show. I generally tolerate it when it serves a purpose for the series and is limited to a minimum (hell, even Sansa's "wedding night" didn't really shock me), but the walk of shame scene really seemed to be there for shock value more than for the story.


Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, if the Sparrows allow trial by combat, they make their hand even weaker than it already has when they released Cersei. I get that trial by combat is justified theologically, but surely the High Sparrow realizes that, being the Queen and all, Cersei has access to the best fighters in the city, even excluding Clegane. Who would they actually put up against that? The smallfolk that supports them doesn't have enough training to stand a chance. So, if things go the way you're saying, Cersei has pretty much won. Which is really a shame, because she's currently the second character I most want to see dead (after Ramsay).


Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

If that's true, then Kevan definitely is a character worth developing.

Also, whatever happened to the Tyrell siblings? Where they offered the possibility to confess as well? If so, did they? Were they released too?


Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

I never thought of Stannis as a good guy, at least not since he got Renly killed. What fascinates me about him was precisely his complexity, and specifically the fact that he had his own morality and will stick to it no matter what. Even when he does something clearly wrong, he does it because he's absolutely convinced that it's the right thing to do, not out of expediency or personal gain. He doesn't even really look like he actually wants to be the King, he just thinks he has to in order to save all of Westeros. And he always puts his money where his mouth is, being the first to go into battle and the last to retreat. The fact that these genuinely likable traits (along with his genuine love for his daughter) are mixed with religious fanaticism, fratricide, mass-murder and general assholery make for a great character. I think we agree in this regard. Wink


Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

I meant pragmatist in the sense that he's ready to do whatever it takes to reach his desired goal, even if he has to sacrifice something he holds very dear. Of course, in other regards, Stannis is probably anything but pragmatic.


Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

As I said, I could actually see him coming to that if the situation was truly desperate, and after agonizing at great lengths and exploring all other options. My issue is that it all ends up being too quick and easy. Sure, you're caught in a bad snowstorm, Ramsay burned some of your provisions, and a few sellswords have left, but are you sure there's nothing else you could have tried? I just don't see him giving up his daughter so easily: isn't "never giving up" kind of the point of his character?

And also, the fact that this sacrifice is utterly pointless raises tons of questions about the intentions of Melisandre, and those of R'hllor. What exactly are their goals here? Do they even match? Who fooled who?
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #210 on: July 14, 2015, 08:44:08 AM »

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

You certainly won't see me come to Tywin's defense. Tongue As a Stark loyalist, I obviously wanted his head on a spike alongside those of Joffrey, Cersei, Littlefinger, and the Boltons.

The point is that he was, as Mace would say, "a force to be reckoned with". Or in simpler terms, he was a badass. I mean come on, he's been the central political figure of Westeros for the past 30 years or so, played both sides in Robert's Rebellion to come out on top, and was clearly the only reason a totally dysfunctional family managed to hold onto near-absolute power for several years (as evidenced by how quickly things go to sh*t for the Lannisters as soon as he dies). That's not the kind of character who ends up dying while taking a dump, cut midsentence while begging his detested son to let him finish the task so that they can talk properly. He was a massive figure and his death should have been massive in some way. At least that's how I feel.

For Stannis, admittedly it's not quite as bad. Tongue It's just that the "final battle" was totally anticlimactic. I knew Stannis would end up losing, but I was expecting that he'd go out with some fireworks, with a battle at least as epic as the Blackwater one. Instead, he's basically crushed like a bug. Still, as I said, his actual death scene was pretty great. I almost liked him again as a character when I saw his facial expression when realizing who Brienne was. It was exactly the reaction I'd expect from Stannis in such situation.


Here's my solution: Don't have Alliser Thorne participate in et tu Olly Tongue  He was a much more interesting and complex character before that.

Very true. I never actually got to like Thorne, but I always thought he was the kind of character who could have been developed in a more sympathetic direction. There's a huge missed opportunity here. He could be the sort of guy who personally despises Jon, but still obeys him because he has a deep-seated respect for the laws of the Watch. The other Watchmen could have carried out their mutiny without him, and he could have reacted with sheer outrage and behead the traitors, and still end up as the new Lord Commander and presumably screw the wildlings over. You'll agree with me it's a pretty big mistake in the story.


Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

I think you're the first person I hear who thinks that. Tongue Almost everyone I've heard on this topic considered season 4 at least somewhat below the previous three. It's still fine, mind you. Personally, my favorite is actually season 1, because it perfectly captured the sense of tension and dread that marks the escalation toward war - the few crucial moments when everything could still happen, but when the pieces slowly set into place for the perfect storm. No season was as rich in building an atmosphere and immersing us into the realm's politics. I also loved seasons 2 and 3, but they had their weak moments.


Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Oh yes, Meryn's death was a glorious thing. I've been waiting for so long to see Arya finally start kicking some ass! Cheesy

Isn't she still going to become "no one" though, now that she put on the mask? The episode's ending made me fear that she'll slowly end up losing her face and identity... I really hope that's not the case! Cry


Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

I do hate the guy too, obviously. What he did to Ned Stark was unforgivable and he deserves a slow, painful death. And it was also very unsettling to see him creeping on Sansa (though Sansa has bigger issues now).

Still, you've got to admit that he's been a positive force in the most recent developments: he killed Joffrey and Lysa, and it's strongly hinted that he's behind Lancel's confessions that led to Cersei's imprisonment. I still don't get why he led Sansa to Winterfell instead of keeping her safe in the Vale. Does he plan on befriending the Boltons? If so, why then tell Cersei he's going to raise the Vale's army against them? I know Littlefinger likes chaos, but even for him this plan makes no sense.
Logged
Citizen (The) Doctor
ArchangelZero
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,391
United States


Political Matrix
E: -3.23, S: -4.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #211 on: July 14, 2015, 12:43:10 PM »

Littlefinger is the kind of guy who plays his cards in all areas -- on the off chance that the Boltons manage to squash Stannis (well at the time it seemed like an off-chance), Littlefinger can play trojan horse. I think Ramsay might just be a miscalculation on his part -- he expected Sansa to remain in Winterfell and she would then become treacherous upon Baelish's invasion, but I don't think Littlefinger expected Ramsay to abuse her to the point she was or for Theon to come back. I mean, either way it doesn't matter -- even if the Boltons squashed the remainder of Stannis's army, its still weakened. The armies of the Vale should still be able to mount a successful siege, if not a full-blown victory.
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #212 on: July 14, 2015, 12:57:35 PM »

Littlefinger is the kind of guy who plays his cards in all areas -- on the off chance that the Boltons manage to squash Stannis (well at the time it seemed like an off-chance), Littlefinger can play trojan horse. I think Ramsay might just be a miscalculation on his part -- he expected Sansa to remain in Winterfell and she would then become treacherous upon Baelish's invasion, but I don't think Littlefinger expected Ramsay to abuse her to the point she was or for Theon to come back. I mean, either way it doesn't matter -- even if the Boltons squashed the remainder of Stannis's army, its still weakened. The armies of the Vale should still be able to mount a successful siege, if not a full-blown victory.

Yeah, I can imagine LF didn't factor in Ramsay in his calculations.... But even then, if his plan is to use the armies of the Vale to wrestle Winterfell away from the Boltons, isn't it counterproductive to give them the Stark heiress (who also happens to be the person he cares most about) as a hostage? Especially since, if the Vale lays a siege, I could easily see Roose threatening to kill Sansa in order to force them to step back.
Logged
Citizen (The) Doctor
ArchangelZero
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,391
United States


Political Matrix
E: -3.23, S: -4.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #213 on: July 14, 2015, 03:17:09 PM »
« Edited: July 14, 2015, 03:19:06 PM by Citizen (The) Doctor »

Littlefinger is the kind of guy who plays his cards in all areas -- on the off chance that the Boltons manage to squash Stannis (well at the time it seemed like an off-chance), Littlefinger can play trojan horse. I think Ramsay might just be a miscalculation on his part -- he expected Sansa to remain in Winterfell and she would then become treacherous upon Baelish's invasion, but I don't think Littlefinger expected Ramsay to abuse her to the point she was or for Theon to come back. I mean, either way it doesn't matter -- even if the Boltons squashed the remainder of Stannis's army, its still weakened. The armies of the Vale should still be able to mount a successful siege, if not a full-blown victory.

Yeah, I can imagine LF didn't factor in Ramsay in his calculations.... But even then, if his plan is to use the armies of the Vale to wrestle Winterfell away from the Boltons, isn't it counterproductive to give them the Stark heiress (who also happens to be the person he cares most about) as a hostage? Especially since, if the Vale lays a siege, I could easily see Roose threatening to kill Sansa in order to force them to step back.

That would require the other Northern lords not to rebel against the Boltons. Sansa is a Stark, and they hate the Boltons and are still loyal to the Starks (i.e. Lady Mormont and the old servant). The second Roose threatens to do anything to Sansa while a Vale force attempts to siege Winterfell would likely result in the Northern lords rising up against Roose and side with the Vale. Remember -- all the Starks are supposedly dead, and Roose needed Sansa to legitimize the Boltons in the North. Killing her takes away that legitimization and makes it easier for any of the other Houses to see the Boltons as illegitimate and rebel.
Logged
Cory
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,709


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #214 on: July 14, 2015, 03:19:48 PM »

I still don't get why he led Sansa to Winterfell instead of keeping her safe in the Vale. Does he plan on befriending the Boltons? If so, why then tell Cersei he's going to raise the Vale's army against them? I know Littlefinger likes chaos, but even for him this plan makes no sense.

I think things are actually set up perfectly for Baelish to seize the North. Think about it: John (probably) gets resurrected and takes command of the Wildlings and summons some minor Northern Houses to march on Winterfell to get revenge against House Bolton. As the Wildling/Northern forces approach Winterfell, Baelish moves in with the Knights of the Vale into Winterfell to "support" the Boltons.

Once inside, the Vale Knights stage a back-stab as John assaults the city, House Bolton is crushed and Petyr enters an alliance with John re-establish House Stark in Winterfell. Petyr, now much stronger and having taken little causalities in his own army due to the ambush nature of his attack, marches South with the North supporting him.

House Tyrell now has major incentive to side with Baelish and doom the Lannisters once and for all.
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #215 on: July 14, 2015, 03:36:52 PM »

I still don't get why he led Sansa to Winterfell instead of keeping her safe in the Vale. Does he plan on befriending the Boltons? If so, why then tell Cersei he's going to raise the Vale's army against them? I know Littlefinger likes chaos, but even for him this plan makes no sense.

I think things are actually set up perfectly for Baelish to seize the North. Think about it: John (probably) gets resurrected and takes command of the Wildlings and summons some minor Northern Houses to march on Winterfell to get revenge against House Bolton. As the Wildling/Northern forces approach Winterfell, Baelish moves in with the Knights of the Vale into Winterfell to "support" the Boltons.

Once inside, the Vale Knights stage a back-stab as John assaults the city, House Bolton is crushed and Petyr enters an alliance with John re-establish House Stark in Winterfell. Petyr, now much stronger and having taken little causalities in his own army due to the ambush nature of his attack, marches South with the North supporting him.

House Tyrell now has major incentive to side with Baelish and doom the Lannisters once and for all.

That actually would be an excellent outcome. Only problem is, knowing this show, it's far too good to be true. Tongue
Logged
Cory
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,709


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #216 on: July 14, 2015, 03:47:39 PM »

That actually would be an excellent outcome. Only problem is, knowing this show, it's far too good to be true. Tongue

Well I'm sure the WhiteWalker invasion and the Daenerys Targaryen making an alliance with Dorne and landing there/marching on Kings Landing will adjust things a bit, to say the least.

Daenerys will probably take Dragonstone first as a springboard to invade Westeros though. With (His Grace) Stannis done for that should be easier then ever.
Logged
Citizen (The) Doctor
ArchangelZero
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,391
United States


Political Matrix
E: -3.23, S: -4.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #217 on: July 14, 2015, 03:51:40 PM »

I still don't get why he led Sansa to Winterfell instead of keeping her safe in the Vale. Does he plan on befriending the Boltons? If so, why then tell Cersei he's going to raise the Vale's army against them? I know Littlefinger likes chaos, but even for him this plan makes no sense.

I think things are actually set up perfectly for Baelish to seize the North. Think about it: John (probably) gets resurrected and takes command of the Wildlings and summons some minor Northern Houses to march on Winterfell to get revenge against House Bolton. As the Wildling/Northern forces approach Winterfell, Baelish moves in with the Knights of the Vale into Winterfell to "support" the Boltons.

Once inside, the Vale Knights stage a back-stab as John assaults the city, House Bolton is crushed and Petyr enters an alliance with John re-establish House Stark in Winterfell. Petyr, now much stronger and having taken little causalities in his own army due to the ambush nature of his attack, marches South with the North supporting him.

House Tyrell now has major incentive to side with Baelish and doom the Lannisters once and for all.

That actually would be an excellent outcome. Only problem is, knowing this show, it's far too good to be true. Tongue

Littlefinger on the Iron Throne? Are you sure that's really that good of an outcome? Tongue
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #218 on: July 14, 2015, 03:56:46 PM »

I still don't get why he led Sansa to Winterfell instead of keeping her safe in the Vale. Does he plan on befriending the Boltons? If so, why then tell Cersei he's going to raise the Vale's army against them? I know Littlefinger likes chaos, but even for him this plan makes no sense.

I think things are actually set up perfectly for Baelish to seize the North. Think about it: John (probably) gets resurrected and takes command of the Wildlings and summons some minor Northern Houses to march on Winterfell to get revenge against House Bolton. As the Wildling/Northern forces approach Winterfell, Baelish moves in with the Knights of the Vale into Winterfell to "support" the Boltons.

Once inside, the Vale Knights stage a back-stab as John assaults the city, House Bolton is crushed and Petyr enters an alliance with John re-establish House Stark in Winterfell. Petyr, now much stronger and having taken little causalities in his own army due to the ambush nature of his attack, marches South with the North supporting him.

House Tyrell now has major incentive to side with Baelish and doom the Lannisters once and for all.

That actually would be an excellent outcome. Only problem is, knowing this show, it's far too good to be true. Tongue

Littlefinger on the Iron Throne? Are you sure that's really that good of an outcome? Tongue

I'll take it if he has Jon, the wildlings, Sansa, the Northern loyalists, the Vale Knights and the Tyrells on his side. It's not like he can do much damage without alienating one of these.

As for Daenerys, it will probably take ages for her to actually come to Westeros. Especially with the bullsh*t ending they gave to her storyline (seriously, did anyone miss the Dothraki? Roll Eyes).
Logged
Cory
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,709


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #219 on: July 14, 2015, 03:57:28 PM »

Littlefinger on the Iron Throne? Are you sure that's really that good of an outcome? Tongue

Now with The One True King His Grace Stannis Baratheon gone Lord Petyr Baelish is the only choice.

I call such bullsh**t on George RR Martin if he has Daenerys win the Throne at the end of the day. It would just be so utterly predictable and typical.
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #220 on: July 14, 2015, 04:04:55 PM »

Yeah, having Daenerys winning in the end would be wrong on many different levels.
Logged
Chancellor Tanterterg
Mr. X
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 26,201
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #221 on: July 14, 2015, 04:40:39 PM »

I still don't get why he led Sansa to Winterfell instead of keeping her safe in the Vale. Does he plan on befriending the Boltons? If so, why then tell Cersei he's going to raise the Vale's army against them? I know Littlefinger likes chaos, but even for him this plan makes no sense.

I think things are actually set up perfectly for Baelish to seize the North. Think about it: John (probably) gets resurrected and takes command of the Wildlings and summons some minor Northern Houses to march on Winterfell to get revenge against House Bolton. As the Wildling/Northern forces approach Winterfell, Baelish moves in with the Knights of the Vale into Winterfell to "support" the Boltons.

Once inside, the Vale Knights stage a back-stab as John assaults the city, House Bolton is crushed and Petyr enters an alliance with John re-establish House Stark in Winterfell. Petyr, now much stronger and having taken little causalities in his own army due to the ambush nature of his attack, marches South with the North supporting him.

House Tyrell now has major incentive to side with Baelish and doom the Lannisters once and for all.

That actually would be an excellent outcome. Only problem is, knowing this show, it's far too good to be true. Tongue 

Speak for yourself, I'd probably quit watching if that happened Tongue
Logged
Citizen (The) Doctor
ArchangelZero
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,391
United States


Political Matrix
E: -3.23, S: -4.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #222 on: July 14, 2015, 05:17:46 PM »

Littlefinger on the Iron Throne? Are you sure that's really that good of an outcome? Tongue

Now with The One True King His Grace Stannis Baratheon gone Lord Petyr Baelish is the only choice.

I call such bullsh**t on George RR Martin if he has Daenerys win the Throne at the end of the day. It would just be so utterly predictable and typical.

The two of the dragonblood will rule jointly. Its the obvious, logical ending.
Logged
Chancellor Tanterterg
Mr. X
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 26,201
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #223 on: July 14, 2015, 05:20:39 PM »

Littlefinger on the Iron Throne? Are you sure that's really that good of an outcome? Tongue

Now with The One True King His Grace Stannis Baratheon gone Lord Petyr Baelish is the only choice.

I call such bullsh**t on George RR Martin if he has Daenerys win the Throne at the end of the day. It would just be so utterly predictable and typical.

The two of the dragonblood will rule jointly. Its the obvious, logical ending.

They're both gonna die in the battle with the Others.
Logged
Cory
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,709


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #224 on: July 15, 2015, 09:46:10 PM »

The two of the dragonblood will rule jointly. Its the obvious, logical ending.

But isn't that kind of against the entire theme of Game Of Thrones? If that happened it would just be another "obvious good guy character inevitably wins the day at the end" show/book.

Having the White-walkers win would be kind of bullsh**t to because it would look like lazy writing, an easy way to cop out of having to write an actual ending in which the plot is relevant. It would be like if someone was writing an Alternate History and just as things were coming to a climax they post " ...and then an asteroid hits the earth and everyone dies. The end."

Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 ... 29  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.089 seconds with 12 queries.