Winter is Coming (GoT is back)

[Mr. Morden]

Incidentally, on the subject of where Jorah should go looking for the cure for greyscale, I suggest going back to Qarth, since this woman was telling him about "protection" in Old Valyria back then, foreshadowing the greyscale he'd be getting three seasons later:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fZqh-qw_0M

Didn't she tell Dany to go to Asshai? It'd be great if we finally got to see Asshai.

I don't know.  I also heard someone suggest that Jorah might go to Oldtown, since last season when Sam mentioned all the knowledge there, he said that there was knowledge about healing.

Wherever Jorah goes, he'd better hope that he can do a better job of hiding his greyscale.  If people see him as a carrier of a dangerous plague, they'll probably just want to kill him.

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I thought it was rather clear that Bran had to be sent back to that moment because the Three-Eyed Raven knew that Hodor needed to become debilitated. Like he said, "the ink is dry". Bran was always meant to cause Wyllis to become Hodor and without that occurring none of the present would be possible; without Hodor Bran would have never survived to begin with and the war would be lost.
[/quote]

I thought there was something else going on in that scene.  You see Ned’s father saying goodbye to him before he goes off to be fostered in the Vale.  I thought this was meant to parallel the 3-Eyed Raven sending Bran out into the world, but it wasn’t explained very well.

As for the suggestion that they only went back to that moment because “that’s what always happened” in the timeline…if that’s what the writers were intending, then that seems like lazy writing.

If you’re going to play by the “there is only one timeline and it is immutable” time travel rules, then the way to handle it is to do something like 12 Monkeys (the movie, not the TV show which I haven’t seen).  The characters are aware of the rules of time travel, and it constrains the options available to them in the past, but they don’t purposely set out to complete a particular action simply because “that’s the way it always was in the timeline”.  Yes, what they do in the past was always part of history.  But their particular motives for doing this or that are their own, not to “fulfill destiny”.  (Which seems kind of dumb as a motivation anyway.  If the past is already written, then you don’t have to specifically set out to fulfill it.  It’ll end up happening even if you’re not specifically trying to make it happen.)

So if the only reason that the 3ER had for going back to that particular moment in time was to make sure that Bran scrambled Hodor’s brain according to the history he’d already seen, then that’s dumb.

[RI]

The trial by combat is verified in the last episode no?

It's questionable as to whether Cersei would actually deign to go through with such a spectacle.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

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I thought it was rather clear that Bran had to be sent back to that moment because the Three-Eyed Raven knew that Hodor needed to become debilitated. Like he said, "the ink is dry". Bran was always meant to cause Wyllis to become Hodor and without that occurring none of the present would be possible; without Hodor Bran would have never survived to begin with and the war would be lost.
[/quote]

I thought there was something else going on in that scene.  You see Ned’s father saying goodbye to him before he goes off to be fostered in the Vale.  I thought this was meant to parallel the 3-Eyed Raven sending Bran out into the world, but it wasn’t explained very well.

As for the suggestion that they only went back to that moment because “that’s what always happened” in the timeline…if that’s what the writers were intending, then that seems like lazy writing.

If you’re going to play by the “there is only one timeline and it is immutable” time travel rules, then the way to handle it is to do something like 12 Monkeys (the movie, not the TV show which I haven’t seen).  The characters are aware of the rules of time travel, and it constrains the options available to them in the past, but they don’t purposely set out to complete a particular action simply because “that’s the way it always was in the timeline”.  Yes, what they do in the past was always part of history.  But their particular motives for doing this or that are their own, not to “fulfill destiny”.  (Which seems kind of dumb as a motivation anyway.  If the past is already written, then you don’t have to specifically set out to fulfill it.  It’ll end up happening even if you’re not specifically trying to make it happen.)

So if the only reason that the 3ER had for going back to that particular moment in time was to make sure that Bran scrambled Hodor’s brain according to the history he’d already seen, then that’s dumb.

[/quote]

I think about it from this point of view. Bloodraven obviously has greensight abilities, otherwise he wouldn't be able to instruct Bran in them. He has prophetic visions -- as in, he can see forward, and he can see backward, and he can do so at a far more advanced skill level than Bran or Jojen can. Therefore, he's likely gone forward and gone backward in his vision quests. The "ink is dry" speech indicates that there only exists one timeline in the GoT universe (or at least only one that is acceptable to greenseers). It doesn't seem impossible that he's aware that Hodor must die, and that he's also aware that Hodor receives his ailment at that specific moment in time. He also knows that Hodor becoming Hodor is necessary for the survival of Bran Stark, clearly one of the chosen ones against the White Walkers. Therefore, he must fulfill the predestination paradox and commits to that (who knows what would happen otherwise), not only due to his knowledge of time but also for instrumental purposes. So I wouldn't say that what Bloodraven did was necessarily only to fulfill a predestination paradox (executing a moment for the sake of the timeline), but that fulfilling the paradox served an instrumental purpose in the grander scheme.

So as per the complaint, I think only Bloodraven is truly guilty of fulfilling time for time's sake. Writing-wise, I think it was very good to have Bloodraven instruct Bran to do as he was bid by Meera, and for Bran to realize the extent of his abilities and the horror they could produce.

[Mr. Morden]

Do you think Tommen and Margery are truly converted over to the High Sparrow's side, or just faking it for now?

Marg is faking it, but I’m not clear on whether she has a specific plan that’s still unfolding, or if she’s just winging it, and did what she had to in order to get out of jail and avoid the Walk of Shame, and will now (perhaps in consultation with Olenna) work out her next move.

In the scene between Marg and Tommen, it seemed like Marg was trying to test out Tommen to see if he was dumb enough to buy into all the High Sparrow’s nonsense, only to realize that yes, he was that dumb, and sensed no insincerity in her words.

On another topic, regarding what’s going on in Braavos…

There were so many layers in that Arya sequence.  She laughs at Joffrey’s death in the stage play, but then, once Lady Crane does the Cersei monologue, it’s no longer funny.  But it seems like there’s some ambiguity on one point: Is Arya simply empathizing with Lady Crane as an individual, or does the fact that she sees a dramatization of her nemesis, Cersei, mourning her son trigger something deeper in her?  Is this the beginning of self-awareness in her, that her enemies are people too, even the wicked cry over their children, and her entire project of trying to deliver vengeance to the people who’ve wronged her is misguided?  In the backstage conversation, she says:

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As she says this, she appears to have a revelation, like the words have far more meaning than Lady Crane is intended to pick up.  But is it just that she realizes that if she kills Lady Crane, she’ll be taking someone away from Crane’s loved ones, and perhaps beginning a whole new cycle of revenge?  Or is it also that she’s realizing that applies to anyone else Arya would kill, including the Lannisters, meaning that she now sees her enemies more as real people?  Or is she deconstructing her own motivations—understanding why she herself is driven to revenge, and now questioning it?  Does she now think that maybe she could be the play’s version of Tyrion in someone else’s story…now having gone across the Narrow Sea to become a villain again?

All of this raises a bigger question about the meta-story of Game of Thrones.  Are many/all of the characters who will survive until the end of the series on a character arc that involves moral progress for the next generation of leaders in Westeros?  That is, is the story like Babylon 5, where the epic conflagration at the center of the story ends up leading our heroes to create a better world at the end than the one that existed at the start of the story, even though millions of people have died in the interim?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Predictions:

- The episode is called The Broken Man, so we pretty much know for sure from the books that the Hound will be back, no?  Hopefully they don't use up too much time with this since there presumably won't be anything for him to really do until next season when I assume Arya will run into him again.  I also hope they don't have him do some pointless fight scene that undercuts the point of the Broken Man speech for fanservice sake, but sadly I expect them to do that.

- Sansa and her increasingly neutered yes-man ShowJon will journey about the North trying to recruit smaller Northern Houses at some big Northern Assembly.  Sansa and Jon make speeches, obviously.  The Cerwyns and Hornwoods should be easy to convince for pretty obvious reasons.  The Mormonts will jump on board and Lyanna Mormont will start a "King in the North" chant for Jon.  I think Liam Cunningham mentioned something about a young actress being cast in a significant new role in the Northern storyline this season during an interview and I'm not sure who fits the bill at this point other than Lyanna Mormont.  Sansa will get jealous and give a speech about how she's a "real" Stark, not a bastard (the implication being that she should be in charge rather than Jon b/c only she has a legit claim which is just lol b/c Rickon technically has the best claim.  Incidentally, I believe Sansa got cut of the line of succession entirely by Robb in the books when he made Jon his heir).  The other Northerners will basically say "Yeah that's nice, go be annoying somewhere else.  King in the North!  King in the North!  King in the North!"  Sansa will decide to secretly write a letter asking LF to send the Vale army because she wants his help after all and because she's starting to show early signs of the Targaryen Privilege-style sense of entitlement that irreparably ruined ShowDany as a character in season two.  I think the showrunners over-corrected in trying to respond to the criticisms about Sansa's season five storyline (some of which were valid, like the ones about her having no real arc, while others such as the ones about the rape scene were ridiculous).  Incidentally, I actually liked Sansa's storyline this year until she started doing stuff like comparing Jon to Ramsay and trusting LF more than Jon, but I digress...

- Davos and Lord Karstark are sent as emissaries to Wyman Manderly.  They give speeches and Davos convinces Wyman Manderly to declare for House Stark while Ramsay receives a Karstark pie.

- Short sexposition scene of Theon and Asha in a Volantis whorehouse (I'm telling you guys, LF is giving away free jetpacks this season.  Hopefully Arya will get one!).  They'll repeat stuff we already know, but the scene's only purpose will be to show Asha making out with another woman and meet the episode's boob quota.  Sadly, I would not be surprised if such a thing actually exists at HBO (there have been rumors for a few years, IIRC).  I am expecting to really, really, really hate this scene.

- Tormund gives big speech to melt Brienne's icy heart convince all the Wildlings to fight for Jon.  Obviously, it works. 

- Tyrion has to appear briefly b/c the show won't have two straight Tyrionless episodes.  I wouldn't mind given how uneven his storyline has been this season, but whatever.  My guess is that Varys will leave Meereen b/c he hates magic and Tyrion and him will part on friendly terms.  It'll probably double as a "Tyrion says something clever/funny" moment. 

- Jamie vs. the Blackfish...will be an anti-climax (for now).  The Freys threaten to kill Edmure, but the Blackfish doesn't yield.  Jaime and the Blackfish have a one-on-one dick measuring contest.  Should be a fun scene even if not much actually happens.  We learn there will be a siege.  I'd almost bet Bronn dies in episode eight.  IDK why, just a gut feeling.  Jaime's not gonna really need a sidekick after this since all he'll have left to do is die in the first episode of the next season unless I'm completely wrong about where things are heading for the Lannisters.  Even if Pet Semetary Catelyn somehow pops up (which I really hope doesn't happen), Bronn does really fit there either.  Maybe the Blackfish kills him (Bronn) in episode 8 or something to establish his bad*** credentials, idk. 

- Arya is hunted by the Waif, but escapes unharmed somehow.  She also decides to join the theatre troupe and leave Westeros with them.  Lady Crane mentions that they will be performing at some Frey wedding soon.  Hopefully Arya kills the Waif, but I fear we'll have to wait until episode eight for that   Still got my fingers crossed for it to happen tomorrow though!  All Waifs Must Die  

- Olenna chews out Cersei for being stupid last season and arming the High Sparrow's followers and says House Tyrell will be publicly be aligning with the Sparrows and wants nothing to do with her.  Olenna will probably secretly ally House Tyrell with Dorne and Danaerys via Varys in the finale.  At least Dany will probably die before the series ends, so I've got that to look forward to, I suppose.  Margaery will appear briefly and Olenna will immediately pick up on the fact that her granddaughter is faking.

- Brienne and Pod may or may not arrive at Riverrun this episode, IDK.  It'll be episode seven or eight though.  I could see it ending with them arriving there.

I'm expecting this to be a popular episode because of the Blackfish and the Hound's returns, but I'm personally not expecting to like it much.  The only stuff I expect to be in it that I'm really invested in atm are Arya's storyline and the Riverrun stuff, but it'll probably be more of a long teaser for episode eight in both of those areas.  And the Karstark pie.  I definitely want to see Wyman Manderly go Sweeney Todd on one of Ramsay's allies!  I'll give it a pass for this if I'm right about the theatre troupe heading to the Twins since it'd mean Arya will likely kill Walder Frey in episode ten and I've been hoping for that since the thought occurred to me about half-way through season four.  I'm really looking forward to episode eight though.  Episode ten should be pretty awesome too.  I could see Snowbowl being good or meh.

[Lumine]

I must say, the Lion and the Rose game we played some time ago is looking more and more amusing given the revelations and events of Season Six.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I must say, the Lion and the Rose game we played some time ago is looking more and more amusing given the revelations and events of Season Six.

Definitely, although something tells me that this Snowbowl will go a bit differently than that one did.  I guess the moral of the story is bad things happen to anyone who holds Winterfell.  If I'm right about episode 10, it'll be even better.

[Mr. Morden]

A few thoughts:

-In the trailer for next time, Sansa says something like “I did what I had to do to survive.”  Will the Northern lords criticize her only for marrying Ramsay, or is they actually going to critique even her actions in King’s Landing, when she was with the Lannisters (as if she had a choice then)?  E.g., she wrote a letter to Robb way back in Season 1.

-Will Varys leave Meereen before Dany arrives?  If not, is there going to be any awkwardness surrounding the fact that he was Jorah’s spymaster when he was spying on her?  (though I guess he should have already thought about that when he and Tyrion first left for Meereen in early Season 5)

-Even if Arya kills the Waif, will she still have a target on her back from the Faceless Men for the rest of her life?  That is, is it FM policy that someone who fails the training and turns their back on the FM has to be offed, or is Jaqen just granting Arya’s life to the Waif as a favor?  (I still think there’s a slim chance that Jaqen is actually testing the Waif in some way, to see if she’s let her passions overcome her “No One”-ness, though that’s probably a longshot.)

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

A few thoughts:

-In the trailer for next time, Sansa says something like “I did what I had to do to survive.”  Will the Northern lords criticize her only for marrying Ramsay, or is they actually going to critique even her actions in King’s Landing, when she was with the Lannisters (as if she had a choice then)?  E.g., she wrote a letter to Robb way back in Season 1.

-Will Varys leave Meereen before Dany arrives?  If not, is there going to be any awkwardness surrounding the fact that he was Jorah’s spymaster when he was spying on her?  (though I guess he should have already thought about that when he and Tyrion first left for Meereen in early Season 5)

-Even if Arya kills the Waif, will she still have a target on her back from the Faceless Men for the rest of her life?  That is, is it FM policy that someone who fails the training and turns their back on the FM has to be offed, or is Jaqen just granting Arya’s life to the Waif as a favor?  (I still think there’s a slim chance that Jaqen is actually testing the Waif in some way, to see if she’s let her passions overcome her “No One”-ness, though that’s probably a longshot.)

Arya will bring Jaqen the Waif's face.  A face is a face is a face.  He'll call it even, but tell her never to come back.  I think the Waif and Arya are both failed students in different ways and Jaqen's just pitting them against each other.

[Blue3]

Unless Arya is the Waif.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-theory-arya_us_57541ae4e4b0ed593f14ab46

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Unless Arya is the Waif.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-theory-arya_us_57541ae4e4b0ed593f14ab46

If that's true then I'm the Lindberg baby.

Post-episode EDIT: Man, whenever I think I couldn't possibly hate the Waif more than I already do, the show finds a way to make it happen.  If/when Arya kills the Waif next week, that sound you hear off in the distance will be me cheering.  Also, this was easily the weakest episode of the season.

[Mr. Morden]

Unless Arya is the Waif.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-theory-arya_us_57541ae4e4b0ed593f14ab46

You know, after this last episode, I’m not sure I’d be that surprised if the answer is something crazy like this.

Or something here is an illusion.  Not sure if the Waif herself is an illusion, but maybe Arya’s wounds?  (because how else is she going to survive that?)

Next episode is titled “No One”, and it would be interesting if we end up discovering that the Faceless Men have been pulling some kind of giant con on either Arya, the Waif, or both.  Or at least, it would be interesting to learn that their motivations are different from what we’ve been led to believe.

[Mr. Morden]

How is it that everyone knows who the Night King is now?  He was mentioned by Bran and Benjen (presumably told by the Children offscreen).  But now in this episode, he gets mentioned by Tormund, and Davos mentions him to Lyanna Mormont as if she’s supposed to understand what he’s talking about.  Do the people of Westeros know more about the White Walker leadership structure than we’ve been led to believe?

Are we in the audience supposed to understand the relationship between the Night King and the other White Walkers beyond just the fact that he’s their leader?  Because if so, then I’m confused.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Unless Arya is the Waif.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-theory-arya_us_57541ae4e4b0ed593f14ab46

You know, after this last episode, I’m not sure I’d be that surprised if the answer is something crazy like this.

Or something here is an illusion.  Not sure if the Waif herself is an illusion, but maybe Arya’s wounds?  (because how else is she going to survive that?)

Next episode is titled “No One”, and it would be interesting if we end up discovering that the Faceless Men have been pulling some kind of giant con on either Arya, the Waif, or both.  Or at least, it would be interesting to learn that their motivations are different from what we’ve been led to believe.

Plot armor

[Mr. Morden]

Unless Arya is the Waif.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-theory-arya_us_57541ae4e4b0ed593f14ab46

You know, after this last episode, I’m not sure I’d be that surprised if the answer is something crazy like this.

Or something here is an illusion.  Not sure if the Waif herself is an illusion, but maybe Arya’s wounds?  (because how else is she going to survive that?)

Next episode is titled “No One”, and it would be interesting if we end up discovering that the Faceless Men have been pulling some kind of giant con on either Arya, the Waif, or both.  Or at least, it would be interesting to learn that their motivations are different from what we’ve been led to believe.

Plot armor

But what is the "in story" explanation?

It would be funny if we find out that the reason people were just kind of staring at her at the end there was because she isn't really hurt or dripping blood.  It's all some kind of illusion.

Is that more likely than not?  No.  But it wouldn't surprise me.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Unless Arya is the Waif.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-theory-arya_us_57541ae4e4b0ed593f14ab46

You know, after this last episode, I’m not sure I’d be that surprised if the answer is something crazy like this.

Or something here is an illusion.  Not sure if the Waif herself is an illusion, but maybe Arya’s wounds?  (because how else is she going to survive that?)

Next episode is titled “No One”, and it would be interesting if we end up discovering that the Faceless Men have been pulling some kind of giant con on either Arya, the Waif, or both.  Or at least, it would be interesting to learn that their motivations are different from what we’ve been led to believe.

Plot armor

But what is the "in story" explanation?

It would be funny if we find out that the reason people were just kind of staring at her at the end there was because she isn't really hurt or dripping blood.  It's all some kind of illusion.

Is that more likely than not?  No.  But it wouldn't surprise me.

I bet Lady Crane (the actress) finds her and sews up the wound.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

How is it that everyone knows who the Night King is now?  He was mentioned by Bran and Benjen (presumably told by the Children offscreen).  But now in this episode, he gets mentioned by Tormund, and Davos mentions him to Lyanna Mormont as if she’s supposed to understand what he’s talking about.  Do the people of Westeros know more about the White Walker leadership structure than we’ve been led to believe?

Are we in the audience supposed to understand the relationship between the Night King and the other White Walkers beyond just the fact that he’s their leader?  Because if so, then I’m confused.

The Night King is an old fairy tale in the North (same reason that everyone knows mythology-wise what a White Walker is), as supposedly the story goes that he was expelled by the alliance of the King Beyond the Wall and a Stark. If you grew up in the North you probably were told it growing up, and that probably allows the other characters to learn about him from the likes of Jon and Sansa.

[Mr. Morden]

How is it that everyone knows who the Night King is now?  He was mentioned by Bran and Benjen (presumably told by the Children offscreen).  But now in this episode, he gets mentioned by Tormund, and Davos mentions him to Lyanna Mormont as if she’s supposed to understand what he’s talking about.  Do the people of Westeros know more about the White Walker leadership structure than we’ve been led to believe?

Are we in the audience supposed to understand the relationship between the Night King and the other White Walkers beyond just the fact that he’s their leader?  Because if so, then I’m confused.

The Night King is an old fairy tale in the North.

Maybe that is established in the books, but it is not mentioned in the show.  For the first 54 episodes of the show, everyone talked about the White Walkers, but there was no indication that people knew about the White Walker leadership.  Now all of a sudden, everyone's talking about it for some reason.

[Blue3]

Jon saw him.

Only people who have talked to Jon, or Bran/Meera/Coldhands, have talked about him.

[Mr. Morden]

Jon saw him.

Only people who have talked to Jon, or Bran/Meera/Coldhands, have talked about him.

But how did Jon know that was the leader of all White Walkers, or that he went by the name "Night King"?  And why did Davos mention the name to Lyanna Mormont, as if she'd know what he was talking about?

[Blue3]

Jon saw him.

Only people who have talked to Jon, or Bran/Meera/Coldhands, have talked about him.

But how did Jon know that was the leader of all White Walkers, or that he went by the name "Night King"?  And why did Davos mention the name to Lyanna Mormont, as if she'd know what he was talking about?

He doesn't go by any name. He's the Night's King because that's what Jon and the 3-Eyed Raven decided to call him, after the infamous "fairy tales".

[Mr. Morden]

Jon saw him.

Only people who have talked to Jon, or Bran/Meera/Coldhands, have talked about him.

But how did Jon know that was the leader of all White Walkers, or that he went by the name "Night King"?  And why did Davos mention the name to Lyanna Mormont, as if she'd know what he was talking about?

He doesn't go by any name. He's the Night's King because that's what Jon and the 3-Eyed Raven decided to call him, after the infamous "fairy tales".

Right, what I'm saying is that there's no reference to such fairy tales in the TV show.  The TV show mentions that the White Walkers were in fairy tales, but it wasn't until this season that we had any idea that regular people in the realm knew anything about the WW leadership.  It seems to be a retcon.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Jon saw him.

Only people who have talked to Jon, or Bran/Meera/Coldhands, have talked about him.

But how did Jon know that was the leader of all White Walkers, or that he went by the name "Night King"?  And why did Davos mention the name to Lyanna Mormont, as if she'd know what he was talking about?

He doesn't go by any name. He's the Night's King because that's what Jon and the 3-Eyed Raven decided to call him, after the infamous "fairy tales".

Right, what I'm saying is that there's no reference to such fairy tales in the TV show.  The TV show mentions that the White Walkers were in fairy tales, but it wasn't until this season that we had any idea that regular people in the realm knew anything about the WW leadership.  It seems to be a retcon.

Apparently he's been referred to by HBO materials as the Night King since Season 4. They just never mentioned it on-screen until this season.

[RaphaelDLG]

I really enjoyed the Arya storyline last episode (FINALLY! after months of marking time)... and then here we go with this implausible getting stabbed in the vital organs 8 million times, falling off a bridge and almost drowning and walking a quarter mile and somehow miraculously not dying.  Bullsh**t, and this show early on knew better.

Also, there's no way the waif would have just let her stay under water for a few seconds without coming back to check on her/finish the job.  Way too amateur of a move.

[Mr. Morden]

I really enjoyed the Arya storyline last episode (FINALLY! after months of marking time)... and then here we go with this implausible getting stabbed in the vital organs 8 million times, falling off a bridge and almost drowning and walking a quarter mile and somehow miraculously not dying.  Bullsh**t, and this show early on knew better.

Also, there's no way the waif would have just let her stay under water for a few seconds without coming back to check on her/finish the job.  Way too amateur of a move.

As I said on the last page: The scene is in some ways so ridiculous that it leaves me to wonder if the FM are pulling some kind of illusion here, for reasons that'll be revealed in the next ep.