Winter is Coming (GoT is back)

[RaphaelDLG]

I actually think, though Jon should have listened to Sansa and been more emotionally prepared for Rickon's death/potential manipulation by Ramsay, you guys are incorrect about LF forces.

1) If the Knights of the Vale had been there at the start of the battle, instead of toying with Jon's tiny force, Ramsay would have just holed up in Winterfell and be way less vulnerable.

2) Sansa had no idea whether or not LF was actually going to show up

Agree that someone from the castle would have seen the knights of the vale coming.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I'm a bit disappointed. Why are all characters so sh*t at what they do all of a sudden?

Jon's fcking charge against the Bolton army is unbelievably dumb and actually immoral. He was taking an action that would kill his men just because he let his emotions control him. Pathetic.

And we're supposed to believe that Littlefinger snuck an entire army of the Vale right up to the gates of Winterfell without anyone in the North noticing? How the hell does that even happen??

And why didn't Sansa tell this to Jon? They could have won the whole battle so much easier with much less loss of life if they had done that. Sigh.

Amen.  Really disappointing episode, IMO.  

That was the best episode of the series so far.

Nah, it was an okay episode at best.  I'd give it a B-/C+

[Lumine]

The character motivations and some dumb moves of their own still bother me (although let's face it, Littlefinger was not exactly wrong when he said "quick tempers, slow minds"), but it would be dishonest to say I disliked the episode. Oddly enough, it was very satisfactory to me, particularly Slaver's Bay.

That said, I don't think any episode or on-screen battle will ever top "Blackwater".

[dead0man]

I was hoping/assuming a genius battle plan by Jon or the Onion or the Wildlings, and they hinted that they might go that way, but no.  It did look good though.  I kept hoping one of the other houses were going to turn on Ramsey, especially the group that went in and surrounded the Wildlings....I was half expecting them to turn around and start attacking Ramsey's more loyal men, but no.


I would have kept Ramsey alive for a few weeks.  Having his own dogs eat him was a nice touch, but seemed to quick for such a sh**t.

[Bacon King]

Jon's fcking charge against the Bolton army is unbelievably dumb and actually immoral. He was taking an action that would kill his men just because he let his emotions control him. Pathetic.

I think this is entirely intentional - his resurrection took away a part of his humanity, making him far more vicious than he used to be

[DINGO Joe]

And we're supposed to believe that Littlefinger snuck an entire army of the Vale right up to the gates of Winterfell without anyone in the North noticing? How the hell does that even happen??

Well, they could have done it via White Harbor with the assistance of House Manderly.  In the books, House Manderly has built a very large hidden navy for some unknown purpose and is quite loyal to House Stark.  Of course in the TV show, their existence is barely acknowledged. 

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Jon's fcking charge against the Bolton army is unbelievably dumb and actually immoral. He was taking an action that would kill his men just because he let his emotions control him. Pathetic.

I think this is entirely intentional - his resurrection took away a part of his humanity, making him far more vicious than he used to be

Let's not fall into the trap of rationalizing lazy writing   Anyway, my biggest problem with all this is why on earth didn't Sansa just tell Jon the Vale knights were coming.

[RaphaelDLG]

Jon's fcking charge against the Bolton army is unbelievably dumb and actually immoral. He was taking an action that would kill his men just because he let his emotions control him. Pathetic.

I think this is entirely intentional - his resurrection took away a part of his humanity, making him far more vicious than he used to be

Let's not fall into the trap of rationalizing lazy writing   Anyway, my biggest problem with all this is why on earth didn't Sansa just tell Jon the Vale knights were coming.

Because she didn't know if they were coming or not.

[RaphaelDLG]

Eh, I disagree somewhat, and would say that the narrative arc is just fine and could potentially have incredible emotional resonance, but that the main problem is the pacing and writing within episodes.

1) Most of the plotlines in seasons 5 and 6 have been plodding and padded with a lot of filler

2) The filler that has been included recently is stupid and doesn't expand on the character's motivations/emotions the way wonderful scenes from seasons 1-4 did. 

Consider useless scenes like Tyrion telling jokes with Missandei, the guy sticking his finger up somebody's anus, Arya doing Karate kid for the 18,000 time, anything with Sam and Gilly.  Do these scenes do anything to tell us about who the characters are and expand upon their internal feelings and motivations?  No, as inartfully written as they are, they are merely repetitive uninteresting attempts to "check in" with slow plotlines to remind us that characters are there that tell us nothing interesting about who the characters are that we don't already know.

Compare to scenes like Robert and Cersei talking about Lyanna and their marriage in Season 1, Tyrion drinking with Bronn and Shae, Littlefinger and Varys.  Not only are these scenes entertaining and electric despite not really advancing the plot, they tell us about the world that the characters live in and their feelings and motivations.  The show has lost its ability to do the requisite check-in scenes well and to put us inside the minds of the characters.

I would say the biggest example of this is Stannis.  The progression from him to a doting father to a cold daughter burning bastard was unbelievable; the show needed to show the desperation in his mind or at least the delusion to make me buy that scene at all.  It just didn't make any sense and was totally unsatisfying.  I'm okay with Stannis being a bad guy, but you have to show me how that happens, and D&D didn't.

I thought this episode was really good, especially compared to the rest of the past two seasons, but I feel like the show has done a pretty bad job of putting us inside Jon's head since his resurrection.  If we have to not check in with minor plotlines like sam or arya for a few episodes to have one or two more intimate scenes with jon, so be it. 

The one character-driven plotline I have enjoyed this season was Jamie and Brienne in the riverlands; I thought that interlude was pretty well done all around.

The show is wisely and by necessity trimming characters, but it isn't developing the characters that it has left and getting us inside their heads in the way that show did powerfully at its start.

The joys of this season have mainly been the times the plot has advanced and the subsequent revelations of story elements that were previously mysteries.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Eh, I disagree somewhat, and would say that the narrative arc is just fine and could potentially have incredible emotional resonance, but that the main problem is the pacing and writing within episodes.

1) Most of the plotlines in seasons 5 and 6 have been plodding and padded with a lot of filler

2) The filler that has been included recently is stupid and doesn't expand on the character's motivations/emotions the way wonderful scenes from seasons 1-4 did. 

Consider useless scenes like Tyrion telling jokes with Missandei, the guy sticking his finger up somebody's anus, Arya doing Karate kid for the 18,000 time, anything with Sam and Gilly.  Do these scenes do anything to tell us about who the characters are and expand upon their internal feelings and motivations?  No, as inartfully written as they are, they are merely repetitive uninteresting attempts to "check in" with slow plotlines to remind us that characters are there that tell us nothing interesting about who the characters are that we don't already know.

Compare to scenes like Robert and Cersei talking about Lyanna and their marriage in Season 1, Tyrion drinking with Bronn and Shae, Littlefinger and Varys.  Not only are these scenes entertaining and electric despite not really advancing the plot, they tell us about the world that the characters live in and their feelings and motivations.  The show has lost its ability to do the requisite check-in scenes well and to put us inside the minds of the characters.

I would say the biggest example of this is Stannis.  The progression from him to a doting father to a cold daughter burning bastard was unbelievable; the show needed to show the desperation in his mind or at least the delusion to make me buy that scene at all.  It just didn't make any sense and was totally unsatisfying.  I'm okay with Stannis being a bad guy, but you have to show me how that happens, and D&D didn't.

I thought this episode was really good, especially compared to the rest of the past two seasons, but I feel like the show has done a pretty bad job of putting us inside Jon's head since his resurrection.  If we have to not check in with minor plotlines like sam or arya for a few episodes to have one or two more intimate scenes with jon, so be it. 

The one character-driven plotline I have enjoyed this season was Jamie and Brienne in the riverlands; I thought that interlude was pretty well done all around.

The show is wisely and by necessity trimming characters, but it isn't developing the characters that it has left and getting us inside their heads in the way that show did powerfully at its start.

The joys of this season have mainly been the times the plot has advanced and the subsequent revelations of story elements that were previously mysteries.

Actually Stannis' season five arc was one of the high points of the series imo.  On a different note, Sansa *did* know that the Vale knights were coming.  That's the whole point.

[RaphaelDLG]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember her receiving a return letter from Littlefinger letting her know that he had heard her request and was coming

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember her receiving a return letter from Littlefinger letting her know that he had heard her request and was coming

But she could've told Jon and they could've then waited for a reply.  At the least, it was highly unlikely that LF wasn't gonna show up at all and I feel like she has to have known that by this point.

[RaphaelDLG]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember her receiving a return letter from Littlefinger letting her know that he had heard her request and was coming

But she could've told Jon and they could've then waited for a reply.  At the least, it was highly unlikely that LF wasn't gonna show up at all and I feel like she has to have known that by this point.

The reason why she didn't bother telling Jon seemed to me to be because she didn't have a ton of optimism that they were coming.  If she would have known, I think she would have obviously told him to wait.

It's probably good that she didn't, though, because Ramsay may have tried a much more sensible, non-sadistic, conservative strategy like holing up in Winterfell while giving Jon and the Vale the finger as they fail miserably to penetrate the fortress.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember her receiving a return letter from Littlefinger letting her know that he had heard her request and was coming

But she could've told Jon and they could've then waited for a reply.  At the least, it was highly unlikely that LF wasn't gonna show up at all and I feel like she has to have known that by this point.

The reason why she didn't bother telling Jon seemed to me to be because she didn't have a ton of optimism that they were coming.  If she would have known, I think she would have obviously told him to wait.

It's probably good that she didn't, though, because Ramsay may have tried a much more sensible, non-sadistic, conservative strategy like holing up in Winterfell while giving Jon and the Vale the finger as they fail miserably to penetrate the fortress.

Nah, Wun Wun would've just broken down the gates.  There are plenty of cases where D&D and Bryan Cogman have done a great job.  This was not one of them.  We shouldn't bend over backward to rationalize lazy or weak writing.

[RaphaelDLG]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember her receiving a return letter from Littlefinger letting her know that he had heard her request and was coming

But she could've told Jon and they could've then waited for a reply.  At the least, it was highly unlikely that LF wasn't gonna show up at all and I feel like she has to have known that by this point.

The reason why she didn't bother telling Jon seemed to me to be because she didn't have a ton of optimism that they were coming.  If she would have known, I think she would have obviously told him to wait.

It's probably good that she didn't, though, because Ramsay may have tried a much more sensible, non-sadistic, conservative strategy like holing up in Winterfell while giving Jon and the Vale the finger as they fail miserably to penetrate the fortress.

Nah, Wun Wun would've just broken down the gates.  There are plenty of cases where D&D and Bryan Cogman have done a great job.  This was not one of them.  We shouldn't bend over backward to rationalize lazy or weak writing.

Possibly.  Wouldn't Ramsay have had way more archers and prepped siege material and just shot Wun Wun in the eyeball eight times before he got to the gate or dropped scalding water and/or a rock on his head?  He almost literally had no men or archers left after the knights of the vale came in to wipe everyone out.

[Bacon King]

Actually Stannis' season five arc was one of the high points of the series imo.  On a different note, Sansa *did* know that the Vale knights were coming.  That's the whole point.

When did Sansa get a reply to the raven she sent Littlefinger??

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

The Vale army is huge and to think that Ramsey wouldn't have seen it coming if they waited would have left a plot hole just as large as Sansa's refusal to tell Jon about the raven. The Bolton force needed to be outside Winterfell for the battle to have lasted only one episode to begin with. Hence, I think it was very convenient for Sansa not to tell Jon beyond just the deux ex machina factor.

Maybe I'm just too optimistic but I really think that they're going to address Sansa's lack of forthrightness going into the next episode and probably though the next season. It's a seed planted that might eventually lead to a Sansa vs. Jon conflict, which would be a very interesting direction to go if they commit to it.

[Mr. Morden]

One thing about "barely" having enough ships to take Dany's entourage to Westeros: Couldn't the ships make two trips if they have to?  Even half of her army would be plenty to at least hold onto some territory in Westeros where they could chill for a while.  Then send the ships back to get the rest.  How long would that take?  A few weeks?

[Gustaf]

One thing about "barely" having enough ships to take Dany's entourage to Westeros: Couldn't the ships make two trips if they have to?  Even half of her army would be plenty to at least hold onto some territory in Westeros where they could chill for a while.  Then send the ships back to get the rest.  How long would that take?  A few weeks?

It'd make for poor optics and that's apparently the only thing this show is about now.

I'd note that the whole luring Ramsay into the field thing makes sense but there is literally ZERO reason why Jon knowing about the Vale army would prevent that. You could do the exact same plan but with the Vale knights charging in 5 minutes earlier and have a much improved outcome for Team Stark.

As far as I can see the only reason to not do this was that they wanted a "cavalry arriving scene" for emotional gratification. Fcking morons.

[dead0man]

The Simpsoning of GoT has begun.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

The Simpsoning of GoT has begun.

Every show has an off season, realative to its typical level of quality, so I don't think we can go quite that far.  That said, the only characters left that I'm really invested in are Arya, the High Sparrow and Walder Frey.  If all three die (and two probably will next week), then I'll probably stop watching.

[RaphaelDLG]

The Simpsoning of GoT has begun.

Every show has an off season, realative to its typical level of quality, so I don't think we can go quite that far.  That said, the only characters left that I'm really invested in are Arya, the High Sparrow and Walder Frey.  If all three die (and two probably will next week), then I'll probably stop watching.

That's an interesting list of characters to be emotionally invested in, esp Walder Frey LOLOL.

IMO season 5 was definitely worse if we are looking for the "off season."

[dead0man]

The High Sparrow is probably my least favorite secondary character.  I'd rather see more Adventures with Gilly and Sam in Oldtown than another Mr Pious Goes to King's Landing.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

The Simpsoning of GoT has begun.

Every show has an off season, realative to its typical level of quality, so I don't think we can go quite that far.  That said, the only characters left that I'm really invested in are Arya, the High Sparrow and Walder Frey.  If all three die (and two probably will next week), then I'll probably stop watching.

That's an interesting list of characters to be emotionally invested in, esp Walder Frey LOLOL.

IMO season 5 was definitely worse if we are looking for the "off season."

I'm emotionally invested in seeing Walder Frey die  And Dean Bradley is so good in the role that I enjoy every scene Walder's in.  The High Sparrow is just a fascinating character imo (it helps that Jonathan Pryce is giving the best performance of his career), much more so than in the books.  Arya's the only protagonist whom I'm emotionally invested in now that they've irredeemably ruined ShowTyrion.  I guess Lyanna Mormont and Davos are alright too.  The former is too minor a character to really get emotionally invested in.  Davos has kinda outlived his narrative purpose and doesn't really work without Stannis.  If there is any sort of Game of Thrones spin-off, please let it be Lyanna Mormont and Arya Stark discovering what's west of Westeros  I really liked Roose Bolton and ShowAlliser, but sadly they both died this season  It was inevitable, of course.  

On a different note, here is how I'd rank the seasons:

1. Season 4
2. Season 3

I go back and forth between those two for the number one slot

3. Season 5




4. Season 1











5. Season 2


6. Season 6

[RaphaelDLG]

See, for me, Season 1 is the best, because it has great world building, characterization, and so many characters that I love get screen time.  My top 5 might include Bobby B, Ned, Bronn, Syrio, Varys - and they all get a ton of scenes in season 1.

In Season 5, I felt that most of the character scenes were weak, the plot was meandering, and the Dorne subplot was incomprehensible.

And I agree that Jonathan Pryce has been electric the past two seasons.

I think, though Game of Thrones has great set design, landscapes, and costumes that really help establish a sense of place, the single best aspect of the show is the acting of the character actors in the supporting cast.

You have Charles Dance, Mark Addy, Jonathan Pryce, Conleth Hill, Iain Glen, Diana Rigg, Stephen Dillane, and literally on and on and on.

The main cast is a slightly different story - I think Peter Dinklage is good but overrated, Kit Harrington was pretty bad at the beginning of the series, and Emilia Clarke has been bad up until very recently.  Lena Headey and NCW are very solid.