Winter is Coming (GoT is back)

[Antonio the Sixth]

Margaery was certainly not as upright as Ned and Robb (which was part of what made her such a great character, the fact that she was good but not GOOD) and infinitely more competent than all three you mention (who really brought their demises onto themselves). Can you cite any mistake she actually made - as in, something that she could have realistically been expected to do differently? The truth is, the way she was killed off had no bearing and said nothing about her character, she was just unceremoniously swept under the rug so the writers could focus on other stories and characters. That's just lazy writing and it shows that the writers had no idea what to do with her despite all the potential she had.

And yeah, thank the Old Gods and the New that they at least didn't decide to turn her death into vile exploitation material. I admit I'd have been even more pissed off if they did it to Margaery, but this remains wrong and despicable even if the character they pick for the job is a second-tier one (or even if it's an utterly despised and despicable one like Ramsay in the episode before, or Cersei last season).

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

A) It might make sense for her character (although for someone who's supposedly all about her children, she didn't give much thought how Tommen might react to losing Margaery... but fair enough, I get it, she's a spiteful and deluded). That doesn't make it a good narrative choice. Maybe I was the only one who found the King's Landing plot interesting, but even if you didn't there's something awfully lazy about wrapping up a storyline by suddenly killing all the participants but one in a way that turns all that preceded into a shaggy dog story. Oh, and the utter pretentiousness of showing the sparrow desperately trying to extinguish the candle when it's obvious he's gonna fail... It's a detail but it's frankly an insult to the viewer.

B) She was never going to win, why? Because she's not popular enough as a character? I love how everybody fawns over Tyrion's charisma and intelligence (nothing wrong about Tyrion per se, he's a good character, but the hype gets annoying after a while) yet completely overlooks Margaery who proved just as apt at maneuvering through a variety of political situation and has if anything more noble purposes than Tyrion. She was unique because, even in a show like GoT that plays around with gender tropes more than most Western shows, she had a rare twist on the "strong female character^TM" routine. She actually drew her strength from stereotypically "feminine" qualities (seduction, emotional intelligence, even temper, etc.) yet wasn't portrayed negatively for doing so as women in fiction almost always are. She could be devious, scheming and manipulative, and at the same time kind, true to herself, and actually trying to make the world a better place. A morally complex drama about politics in a pseudo-medieval context should have made good use of a character like this, not squandered it in a way that made it completely superfluous to the story.

And yeah, the High Sparrow and the general idea of a theocracy taking hold of King's Landing was also a very interesting concept that deserved to be sent off in a more ceremonious way that that.

C) Whether it's shown directly or implied, it's still torture porn. It's not necessary to the story in any way, it's just there to SHOCK viewers (and possibly titillate some). For the record, I feel the same about Ramsay's death scene (Sansa is supposed to be better than this, for f**k's sake).

Well, I guess she wasn't as apt in the end.

Part of the issue might be that this clever Margaery is a bit of a show invention. As far as I recall from the books there isn't much of that aspect to her character there.

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the show ending for Margaery (not losing because of her own mistakes but because of the High Sparrow) is actually more dignifying for her than the one planned by GRRM.

[RaphaelDLG]

I think the best ending to the series would be magic destroyed (including WW and dragons) and the climate balance restored, but at physical and emotional cost. 

Also, I would like to see the "wheel" of aristocratic male domination broken, and don't think Daenerys as ruler or even Jon as ruler would be a good ending - I think they should make their world more modern and egalitarian like the NW, and both maybe not die, but finish out the story as emotionally wounded characters.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

A) It might make sense for her character (although for someone who's supposedly all about her children, she didn't give much thought how Tommen might react to losing Margaery... but fair enough, I get it, she's a spiteful and deluded). That doesn't make it a good narrative choice. Maybe I was the only one who found the King's Landing plot interesting, but even if you didn't there's something awfully lazy about wrapping up a storyline by suddenly killing all the participants but one in a way that turns all that preceded into a shaggy dog story. Oh, and the utter pretentiousness of showing the sparrow desperately trying to extinguish the candle when it's obvious he's gonna fail... It's a detail but it's frankly an insult to the viewer.

B) She was never going to win, why? Because she's not popular enough as a character? I love how everybody fawns over Tyrion's charisma and intelligence (nothing wrong about Tyrion per se, he's a good character, but the hype gets annoying after a while) yet completely overlooks Margaery who proved just as apt at maneuvering through a variety of political situation and has if anything more noble purposes than Tyrion. She was unique because, even in a show like GoT that plays around with gender tropes more than most Western shows, she had a rare twist on the "strong female character^TM" routine. She actually drew her strength from stereotypically "feminine" qualities (seduction, emotional intelligence, even temper, etc.) yet wasn't portrayed negatively for doing so as women in fiction almost always are. She could be devious, scheming and manipulative, and at the same time kind, true to herself, and actually trying to make the world a better place. A morally complex drama about politics in a pseudo-medieval context should have made good use of a character like this, not squandered it in a way that made it completely superfluous to the story.

And yeah, the High Sparrow and the general idea of a theocracy taking hold of King's Landing was also a very interesting concept that deserved to be sent off in a more ceremonious way that that.

C) Whether it's shown directly or implied, it's still torture porn. It's not necessary to the story in any way, it's just there to SHOCK viewers (and possibly titillate some). For the record, I feel the same about Ramsay's death scene (Sansa is supposed to be better than this, for f**k's sake).

Well, I guess she wasn't as apt in the end.

Part of the issue might be that this clever Margaery is a bit of a show invention. As far as I recall from the books there isn't much of that aspect to her character there.

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the show ending for Margaery (not losing because of her own mistakes but because of the High Sparrow) is actually more dignifying for her than the one planned by GRRM.

This, Margaery was never a particularly important character (especially in the books). 

[Antonio the Sixth]

Also, I would like to see the "wheel" of aristocratic male domination broken, and don't think Daenerys as ruler or even Jon as ruler would be a good ending - I think they should make their world more modern and egalitarian like the NW, and both maybe not die, but finish out the story as emotionally wounded characters.

In all modesty, I'm the one who brought constitutional federalism to Westeros.

Proclaim of the Allied Kings

We, the rightful sovereigns of Westeros, in Order to establish lasting Peace throughout the continent, restore Law and Justice, provide for the common defence, and promote the General Welfare of our Realms, do hereby agree to join our forces and wisdom in a Commonwealth of the Free Kingdoms, whose setting principles shall be laid out in the following Charter.

Section I - Scope and Extent of the Commonwealth

Article 1 The Commonwealth shall be formed by the North, Riverlands, Vale, Dorne, Westerlands, Stormlands, Dragonlands (formerly known as Crownlands), and all other realms of Westeros which shall wish to join it at any time.

Article 2 The Purpose of this Commonwealth shall be to organize and maintain stable and peaceful relations between separate realms, or to deal with matters involving the common safety of all. This document shall in no way be construed to deny each of the aforementioned realms their absolute freedom and independence in resolving internal matters.

Article 3 Each realm must provide one twentieth (1/20) of their soldiers to form a Commonwealth Army. Said Army may only be used to fight a foreign force, and may not, under any circumstance, be directed against a member of the Commonwealth.

Article 5 The Commonwealth shall negotiate with foreign entities in the name of all its members on military and commercial matters that involve the interests of several realms. Single realms may still conduct separate negotiations with foreign entities, as long as those do not contradict the entanglements contracted by the Commonwealth as a whole.

Article 6 The Commonwealth shall settle any disputes arising between two or more realms in matters of trade or justice, which could not be resolved through direct negotiations. If petitioned by one of its members to act as a mediator in such dispute, the Commonwealth shall have the power to set appropriate trade barriers, and to order a realm to return an individual which is facing trial in another realm.

Article 7 A common currency shall be minted in all member realms. The individual realms shall remain responsible for its minting. However, if disputes shall arise between realms regarding the amount of coins produced by each, the Commonwealth may be petitioned under Article 6 to set reasonable minting limits.

Article 8 In the case that one member of the Commonwealth failed to honor the obligations subscribed under this document, the Commonwealth may call upon other realms to ensure, though military means if necessary, that the agreement is respected.

Section II - Structure of the Commonwealth

Article 9 All power recognized to the Commonwealth under this document shall be vested into a Lord Protector of the Commonwealth and into a High Council. The Lord Protector shall initiate all decisions, which may then be ratified or rejected by the High Council.

Article 10 The office of Lord Protector of the Commonwealth shall befall upon Daemon Blackfyre, and to his rightful heirs as identified under the common laws of succession. The Lord Protector shall rule as King of the Dragonlands.

Article 11 The High Council shall be formed by one member appointed by each of the rightful sovereigns of the realms that form the Commonwealth (including the Dragonlands). A High Councilor may at any time be removed from office by the sovereign who appointed them, and replaced by another.

Article 12 The High Council shall deliberate and vote on any Commonwealth action taken by the Lord Protector, with the exception specified under Article 13. A Commonwealth action shall become effective if and only if more than half of the High Councillors vote to ratify it. High Councilors must keep their deliberations secret to anyone aside from the respective sovereign who appointed them, to whom they must provide a complete and truthful account of their actions.

Article 13 If, upon request of the Lord Protector, at least two thirds of the High Councilors vote to acknowledge a state of war against a foreign entity, the Lord Protector shall assume full command of the Commonwealth Army in its struggle against said force. The High Council may, at any time, by a vote of two thirds of its members, revoke a declaration of war.

Article 14 The terms of this Charter may at any time be subject to revision if, upon request of the Lord Protector, more than three quarters of the High Councilors shall consent to the revision.

Appendix - Financial organization

The Seven Kingdoms being hereby dissolved, the now independent realms that once composed it shall assume full faith and credit for debts contracted by its Crown. Each of the formerly united Kingdom shall take up a share of this burden, to be determined in due course after the war's end, which shall be proportional to a realm's wealth and economic resources.

The Commonwealth Administration hereby established shall not contract any debt, nor levy any amount of money from its constituent realms, whether directly or indirectly. Each realm shall be responsible to provide for the expenses of its respective High Councillor, and the Dragonlands shall be responsible to provide for all additional expenses.


X Robb of the House Stark, First of his Name, King in the North

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Also, I would like to see the "wheel" of aristocratic male domination broken, and don't think Daenerys as ruler or even Jon as ruler would be a good ending - I think they should make their world more modern and egalitarian like the NW, and both maybe not die, but finish out the story as emotionally wounded characters.

In all modesty, I'm the one who brought constitutional federalism to Westeros.

Proclaim of the Allied Kings

We, the rightful sovereigns of Westeros, in Order to establish lasting Peace throughout the continent, restore Law and Justice, provide for the common defence, and promote the General Welfare of our Realms, do hereby agree to join our forces and wisdom in a Commonwealth of the Free Kingdoms, whose setting principles shall be laid out in the following Charter.

Section I - Scope and Extent of the Commonwealth

Article 1 The Commonwealth shall be formed by the North, Riverlands, Vale, Dorne, Westerlands, Stormlands, Dragonlands (formerly known as Crownlands), and all other realms of Westeros which shall wish to join it at any time.

Article 2 The Purpose of this Commonwealth shall be to organize and maintain stable and peaceful relations between separate realms, or to deal with matters involving the common safety of all. This document shall in no way be construed to deny each of the aforementioned realms their absolute freedom and independence in resolving internal matters.

Article 3 Each realm must provide one twentieth (1/20) of their soldiers to form a Commonwealth Army. Said Army may only be used to fight a foreign force, and may not, under any circumstance, be directed against a member of the Commonwealth.

Article 5 The Commonwealth shall negotiate with foreign entities in the name of all its members on military and commercial matters that involve the interests of several realms. Single realms may still conduct separate negotiations with foreign entities, as long as those do not contradict the entanglements contracted by the Commonwealth as a whole.

Article 6 The Commonwealth shall settle any disputes arising between two or more realms in matters of trade or justice, which could not be resolved through direct negotiations. If petitioned by one of its members to act as a mediator in such dispute, the Commonwealth shall have the power to set appropriate trade barriers, and to order a realm to return an individual which is facing trial in another realm.

Article 7 A common currency shall be minted in all member realms. The individual realms shall remain responsible for its minting. However, if disputes shall arise between realms regarding the amount of coins produced by each, the Commonwealth may be petitioned under Article 6 to set reasonable minting limits.

Article 8 In the case that one member of the Commonwealth failed to honor the obligations subscribed under this document, the Commonwealth may call upon other realms to ensure, though military means if necessary, that the agreement is respected.

Section II - Structure of the Commonwealth

Article 9 All power recognized to the Commonwealth under this document shall be vested into a Lord Protector of the Commonwealth and into a High Council. The Lord Protector shall initiate all decisions, which may then be ratified or rejected by the High Council.

Article 10 The office of Lord Protector of the Commonwealth shall befall upon Daemon Blackfyre, and to his rightful heirs as identified under the common laws of succession. The Lord Protector shall rule as King of the Dragonlands.

Article 11 The High Council shall be formed by one member appointed by each of the rightful sovereigns of the realms that form the Commonwealth (including the Dragonlands). A High Councilor may at any time be removed from office by the sovereign who appointed them, and replaced by another.

Article 12 The High Council shall deliberate and vote on any Commonwealth action taken by the Lord Protector, with the exception specified under Article 13. A Commonwealth action shall become effective if and only if more than half of the High Councillors vote to ratify it. High Councilors must keep their deliberations secret to anyone aside from the respective sovereign who appointed them, to whom they must provide a complete and truthful account of their actions.

Article 13 If, upon request of the Lord Protector, at least two thirds of the High Councilors vote to acknowledge a state of war against a foreign entity, the Lord Protector shall assume full command of the Commonwealth Army in its struggle against said force. The High Council may, at any time, by a vote of two thirds of its members, revoke a declaration of war.

Article 14 The terms of this Charter may at any time be subject to revision if, upon request of the Lord Protector, more than three quarters of the High Councilors shall consent to the revision.

Appendix - Financial organization

The Seven Kingdoms being hereby dissolved, the now independent realms that once composed it shall assume full faith and credit for debts contracted by its Crown. Each of the formerly united Kingdom shall take up a share of this burden, to be determined in due course after the war's end, which shall be proportional to a realm's wealth and economic resources.

The Commonwealth Administration hereby established shall not contract any debt, nor levy any amount of money from its constituent realms, whether directly or indirectly. Each realm shall be responsible to provide for the expenses of its respective High Councillor, and the Dragonlands shall be responsible to provide for all additional expenses.


X Robb of the House Stark, First of his Name, King in the North

Over my dead body

[RINO Tom]

OK, I finally saw the season finale two days ago.

F**k this show, f**k the screenwriters, and f**k Martin if he had anything to do with that cynical, lazy, faux-edgy SHOCKING development. F**k whoever thought it was a good idea to kill off one of the most fascinating and original characters in the show. F**k whoever thought the viewers wanted more torture porn after the obscenity of season 5, and f**k the viewers who did indeed want more of it.

You know what pisses me off the most? It's not how exploitive, self-indulgent and immature-while-pretending-to-be-mature the show can be. There are plenty of sh*tty shows that are like that. What I hate about this show is that, despite all these flaws, it still manages to be an excellent show in other ways. Still makes me care about all the characters in it, want to see the good prevail and the evil be destroyed. I wish I wasn't so invested in Arya, Sansa, Jon, Bran, Meera, Olenna, Tyrion, Varys and Asha. I wish I wasn't so invested in seeing Cersei and Littlefinger get their comeuppance. But I am, and that means I'll keep watching this f**king show and have to keep put up with all the filth it throws at us.

Yes, I realize that I'm just whining here.

Oh, for 's sake, dude.

That episode was flawless.

[Lumine]

Also, I would like to see the "wheel" of aristocratic male domination broken, and don't think Daenerys as ruler or even Jon as ruler would be a good ending - I think they should make their world more modern and egalitarian like the NW, and both maybe not die, but finish out the story as emotionally wounded characters.

In all modesty, I'm the one who brought constitutional federalism to Westeros.

Over my dead body

I really need to make that Clash of Kings remake as soon as time allows, xD

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Also, I would like to see the "wheel" of aristocratic male domination broken, and don't think Daenerys as ruler or even Jon as ruler would be a good ending - I think they should make their world more modern and egalitarian like the NW, and both maybe not die, but finish out the story as emotionally wounded characters.

In all modesty, I'm the one who brought constitutional federalism to Westeros.

Over my dead body

I really need to make that Clash of Kings remake as soon as time allows, xD

Yes.  Yes, you do

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Personally, I think it's too early to assume that Tommen actually died.  He went off screen, supposedly to remove the crown and then when "he" comes back to the window, we only see him from the back.  I think it's entirely possible he faked his death so he could escape his mother's clutches.  Certainly whatever is left of the Sparrows would be willing to help him do that and provide the "volunteer" to be his body double.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Also, I would like to see the "wheel" of aristocratic male domination broken, and don't think Daenerys as ruler or even Jon as ruler would be a good ending - I think they should make their world more modern and egalitarian like the NW, and both maybe not die, but finish out the story as emotionally wounded characters.

In all modesty, I'm the one who brought constitutional federalism to Westeros.

Over my dead body

I really need to make that Clash of Kings remake as soon as time allows, xD

Haha, I'd love to be an external observer and watch as the new Robb tries to replicate my success.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Personally, I think it's too early to assume that Tommen actually died.  He went off screen, supposedly to remove the crown and then when "he" comes back to the window, we only see him from the back.  I think it's entirely possible he faked his death so he could escape his mother's clutches.  Certainly whatever is left of the Sparrows would be willing to help him do that and provide the "volunteer" to be his body double.

Uh, Cersei is seen looking at the body later on. Pretty sure she'd be able to recognize if it wasn't her son.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Also, I would like to see the "wheel" of aristocratic male domination broken, and don't think Daenerys as ruler or even Jon as ruler would be a good ending - I think they should make their world more modern and egalitarian like the NW, and both maybe not die, but finish out the story as emotionally wounded characters.

In all modesty, I'm the one who brought constitutional federalism to Westeros.

Over my dead body

I really need to make that Clash of Kings remake as soon as time allows, xD

Haha, I'd love to be an external observer and watch as the new Robb tries to replicate my success.

Or you could always play as someone else

[Antonio the Sixth]

Also, I would like to see the "wheel" of aristocratic male domination broken, and don't think Daenerys as ruler or even Jon as ruler would be a good ending - I think they should make their world more modern and egalitarian like the NW, and both maybe not die, but finish out the story as emotionally wounded characters.

In all modesty, I'm the one who brought constitutional federalism to Westeros.

Over my dead body

I really need to make that Clash of Kings remake as soon as time allows, xD

Haha, I'd love to be an external observer and watch as the new Robb tries to replicate my success.

Or you could always play as someone else

I'm a scholar now, I have no time for these children's games.

Seriously though, I'd love to but I most definitely won't have time this summer.

[windjammer]

Bump with the new trailer.


What are your predictions?

My main two:
-Cersei will not die this season but next one.
-Euron and Cersei will make an alliance (marry maybe?). Strategicallj speaking it would make sense.

[dead0man]

I don't know, but I'm sure excited about it.


Also, don't know if you've heard, but there are 5 spin off series in pre-pre-pre-production.  Probably won't do all 5, and whatever they are, they won't be about anything remotely close to what's gone on in the show OR Sir Robert's Rebellion....and not that Duck and Egg thing (or whatever) either.

[Enduro]

I don't know, but I'm sure excited about it.


Also, don't know if you've heard, but there are 5 spin off series in pre-pre-pre-production.  Probably won't do all 5, and whatever they are, they won't be about anything remotely close to what's gone on in the show OR Sir Robert's Rebellion....and not that Duck and Egg thing (or whatever) either.

There is no such thing as pre-pre-pre-production. The series are in development.

Anyway, I'm kinda skeptical about 5 series, but intrigued as to what they are. As for the trailer, I thought it was very good, the Lannister/Unsullied fight scenes particularly interested me.

[Blue3]

[Enduro]

Anyone else feeling a lack of enthusiasm for the coming season? It's a social enough occasion for me that I will watch anyway, but I'm not excited about it.

I'm pumped.

[Blue3]

Surprised no one has bumped this thread yet... so many gamechangers already!

[dead0man]

Obviously they had to strengthen Cersei's hand to make the story work better, but sheesh.  They did a good job too plot wise....sure a little Dues Ex with Euron and his magic fleet, but marching on Highgarden and getting the money just.in.time....ok, that worked out a little too good as well.

Jamie is an amazing character though.  Pushes a likable little boy out the window in the pilot and 7 seasons later, he's still doing bad things for the bad guys yet is somehow one of the most sympathetic characters.

[dead0man]

and when did Dany become a "bad guy"?  Ok, maybe she isn't the "bad guy", but she sure did a lot things "bad guy"s do last night.

[Mr. Morden]

and when did Dany become a "bad guy"?  Ok, maybe she isn't the "bad guy", but she sure did a lot things "bad guy"s do last night.

Like what?  She did far worse things in Meereen, like crucifying the masters, feeding one of the Meereenese nobles (who she admitted might have been innocent) to her dragons as an example to the others, and forcing Hizdahr to marry her.

[Mr. Morden]

A couple of other things about last night's episode:

1) Dany says that, like her, Jon has also lost two brothers.  At the time she's saying that, doesn't most of the world still believe that Bran is also dead?  Meaning that she'd think that he's lost three brothers?

2) If that is really the end of the greyscale storyline, then it's an incredibly dumb subplot.  All it accomplished was getting Jorah separated from Dany's group for about 8-10 episodes, in a way that seemingly had no impact on the larger storyline whatsoever.

I still hope that Sam's newfound greyscale knowledge ultimately ties in with whatever knowledge he's going to harness against the White Walkers.  After all, we've seen Craster's babies get turned into WWs in a way that evokes greyscale turning people into the stone men, almost like an ice counterpart to greyscale's "fire".  They're both like an infection, so I've long thought that the solution to both problems might be related.  But seeing that the cure for greyscale consists of cutting off the scales and applying ointment, I'm now less hopeful on this front than I used to be.

[dead0man]

and when did Dany become a "bad guy"?  Ok, maybe she isn't the "bad guy", but she sure did a lot things "bad guy"s do last night.

Like what?  She did far worse things in Meereen, like crucifying the masters, feeding one of the Meereenese nobles (who she admitted might have been innocent) to her dragons as an example to the others, and forcing Hizdahr to marry her.

the taking the boat and weapons and the general dickishness, but you're right, she has done dickish things in the past too.