Winter is Coming (GoT is back)

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

This mountain of wonderful came on last night.

I thought Littlefinger's plan would come to fruition before any wedding so I was surprised by the end.  Now not sure what LF is up to. And is Sansa still his ally?

Just got done blitz watching the whole thing over the last two weeks.

It kinda seems like his entire plan relies on House Bolton defeating Stannis in the battle for the North. If Stannis wins then he's back to square one with the Veil being on the front lines of the Baratheon advance. He would yet again become entirely beholden to the Lannisters to defeat Stannis.

I'm assuming he wants Stannis to win and declare Sansa the warden of the North, restoring the Starks to power. That way, Littlefinger has two regions essentially under his control.

I mean either way Littlefinger gets to control the North. Either the Boltons or Stannis barely make it out alive and Littlefinger comes in to claim the North for the Crown or Stannis wins, Sansa becomes Warden, Littlefinger remains in de-facto control. In the latter case, I expect to see Stannis taken down by Littlefinger sometime soon. He's going to attempt to claim the throne after Cersei is disgraced and Kevan is killed, I think, and it'll be Daenerys vs. Littlefinger in the final acts of the series, before the White Walkers come of course.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

So are we getting Stannis vs. The Boltons this season or not? I need to see an epic battle soon!

But that would mean Mel burns Shireen

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Also, while I applaud the High Sparrow, I'm absolutely terrified by him. I can't tell if a religious police state is really any better than its predecessor.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Humanity is screwed.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

They're played by real people too, and seem chill as f[inks].

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

The reason this show will never be as good as truly great shows like The Wire or Mad Men or The Sopranos is that the writers care more about SHOCKING TWISTS that'll get the internet talking than telling stories with consistent and believable characters. Stannis lighting his daughter on fire because it maybe might possibly give him an advantage (?? still not really sure what is supposed to happening from burning her) is completely out of character, and it ruins a great character just so they can squeeze out another SHOCKING TWIST.

Also it was already established in the show that you can just leach the blood out of someone with King's blood and burn the leach and apparently there's enough magic in there to CAUSE THE DEATH OF A KING, so immediately jumping ahead to BURNING HER ALIVE is again ignoring the reality of the show just so that the writers can be smug about how many SHOCKING TWISTS they're throwing at us.

It was apparently done at the behest of GRRM according to the short documentary. So that this was planned all along to happen anyway in the books (at least in some form).

This sums up how I feel about Stannis at this point.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

This is an interesting take on Stannis I found on the Game Of Thrones on HBO subreddit that I think sums up his character quite succinctly:

All your life you want to be noble, loved, and a hero. Then someone tells you that you actually are destined to be the hero and the king. It all seems great at first but it turns out being the hero doesn't mean you get to be loved. In fact now you have to start doing some pretty dark sh**t. You're burning people for hell's sake! But you're meant to be king, this god whose power you have seen says that you have to do these things. Then suddenly you're about to execute the one person who really respects and cares for you, he's one of your best friends. And then in this crazy quick sequence of events he's your hand, you're now destined to be a hero that will fight off a threat to the North, and you're heading to the Wall. You're starting to doubt yourself and honestly you're afraid but you have to do this it's your destiny.

So now you've preserved the Night's Watch but you see how weak they really are. You realize you need to be king to stop what your trusted adviser says is coming. So you head South and things start to go to sh**t. You're in a hurry but you're moving so slow. And then tragedy happens... you're attacked in the night. Things are falling apart. Then this offer comes. A promise of victory. A sacrifice, the biggest one you've ever made, for a win. At this point you don't doubt this lord of light. All you really doubt is yourself. But this is your destiny, to be the hero. You don't even want to be the hero anymore. But you have to. To save everyone. You know none of them will appreciate you. And now you're going to kill her. Your daughter. Your only child. And she's screaming at you to stop. But you, Stannis Baratheon, you are Iron. And Iron does not bend. You apply pressure until it shatters, until it breaks. And God you are so close to breaking. Selyse is gone now, she's trying to stop it. Your soldiers are looking at you like a monster. But you don't care. You only care about her and she's gone but it meant something... it had to. You're going to win now. You know this. You have to save them all.

Now this is why I love Stannis. And the saddest part is that he will never be the hero in the end. He's not the savior. Mel is either blind or lying. Eventually he will learn this and that moment... that is when the iron shatters.

In Stannis's eyes he has to do these things because he is the only one who can save Westeros from the White Walkers. He's delusional but he's a sincere True Believer.

Truth be told Stannis Baratheon is probably the most complex and personally interesting  character in the show at this point. They need to stop wasting screen-time with Arya and have the finale be mostly about the battle of Winterfell. If they don't get to it I'm gonna be very let down. I mean c'mon are they seriously gonna make everyone wait basically a year for it?

If you're worried about having to wait a year for a battle, don't read the books.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

I'm not completely on the Stannis hate train. I loved Shireen, but consider the larger picture. R'hllor is as good as confirmed, and because of Ramsay's (ridiculous) raid, not only might Stannis fail to capture Winterfell, but if he is Azor Ahai as Mel says, then his failure also means the end of the world. If he loses, who mines the dragonglass? What other ruler in Westeros gives a rip about the coming White Walker invasion?

The rub is he's probably not Azor Ahai, though he probably leads Mel to the real Azor Ahai.

The show's choices for the throne are now a Lannister puppet, a man who just murdered his daughter for a small advantage or Dany.

Except, of course, the one person who may have a better claim than any of them and who probably is Azor Ahai.

Yeah, can't recall how obvious it is in the show but the books see pretty clear on who is Azor Ahai.

His plot armor should be enough of a giveaway frankly.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Season 5 might as well be named Season 6 prequel.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Wait, so has the TV show caught up with the book?9

Other than a couple of scenes, yes.

Out of curiosity which ones are you thinking of? (I've been spoiled up to AFFC/ADWD and all the TWOW sample chapters)

Arya hasn't caught up yet since she's just going blind now. The Ironborn stuff also hasn't happened. They couldn't cut that, could they? It seems so important! Oh, and Kevan is still alive.

There's also Jaime and the Riverlands.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Actually thinking about it, I can see a war with Dorne substitute Aegon's invasion. Assuming Daenerys comes to Westeros next season, we can still get Doran's "Fire and Blood" plan.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Littlefinger is the kind of guy who plays his cards in all areas -- on the off chance that the Boltons manage to squash Stannis (well at the time it seemed like an off-chance), Littlefinger can play trojan horse. I think Ramsay might just be a miscalculation on his part -- he expected Sansa to remain in Winterfell and she would then become treacherous upon Baelish's invasion, but I don't think Littlefinger expected Ramsay to abuse her to the point she was or for Theon to come back. I mean, either way it doesn't matter -- even if the Boltons squashed the remainder of Stannis's army, its still weakened. The armies of the Vale should still be able to mount a successful siege, if not a full-blown victory.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Littlefinger is the kind of guy who plays his cards in all areas -- on the off chance that the Boltons manage to squash Stannis (well at the time it seemed like an off-chance), Littlefinger can play trojan horse. I think Ramsay might just be a miscalculation on his part -- he expected Sansa to remain in Winterfell and she would then become treacherous upon Baelish's invasion, but I don't think Littlefinger expected Ramsay to abuse her to the point she was or for Theon to come back. I mean, either way it doesn't matter -- even if the Boltons squashed the remainder of Stannis's army, its still weakened. The armies of the Vale should still be able to mount a successful siege, if not a full-blown victory.

Yeah, I can imagine LF didn't factor in Ramsay in his calculations.... But even then, if his plan is to use the armies of the Vale to wrestle Winterfell away from the Boltons, isn't it counterproductive to give them the Stark heiress (who also happens to be the person he cares most about) as a hostage? Especially since, if the Vale lays a siege, I could easily see Roose threatening to kill Sansa in order to force them to step back.

That would require the other Northern lords not to rebel against the Boltons. Sansa is a Stark, and they hate the Boltons and are still loyal to the Starks (i.e. Lady Mormont and the old servant). The second Roose threatens to do anything to Sansa while a Vale force attempts to siege Winterfell would likely result in the Northern lords rising up against Roose and side with the Vale. Remember -- all the Starks are supposedly dead, and Roose needed Sansa to legitimize the Boltons in the North. Killing her takes away that legitimization and makes it easier for any of the other Houses to see the Boltons as illegitimate and rebel.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

I still don't get why he led Sansa to Winterfell instead of keeping her safe in the Vale. Does he plan on befriending the Boltons? If so, why then tell Cersei he's going to raise the Vale's army against them? I know Littlefinger likes chaos, but even for him this plan makes no sense.

I think things are actually set up perfectly for Baelish to seize the North. Think about it: John (probably) gets resurrected and takes command of the Wildlings and summons some minor Northern Houses to march on Winterfell to get revenge against House Bolton. As the Wildling/Northern forces approach Winterfell, Baelish moves in with the Knights of the Vale into Winterfell to "support" the Boltons.

Once inside, the Vale Knights stage a back-stab as John assaults the city, House Bolton is crushed and Petyr enters an alliance with John re-establish House Stark in Winterfell. Petyr, now much stronger and having taken little causalities in his own army due to the ambush nature of his attack, marches South with the North supporting him.

House Tyrell now has major incentive to side with Baelish and doom the Lannisters once and for all.

That actually would be an excellent outcome. Only problem is, knowing this show, it's far too good to be true.

Littlefinger on the Iron Throne? Are you sure that's really that good of an outcome?

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Littlefinger on the Iron Throne? Are you sure that's really that good of an outcome?

Now with The One True King His Grace Stannis Baratheon gone Lord Petyr Baelish is the only choice.

I call such bullsh**t on George RR Martin if he has Daenerys win the Throne at the end of the day. It would just be so utterly predictable and typical.

The two of the dragonblood will rule jointly. Its the obvious, logical ending.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

I haven't read the books, but since the show has now caught up to the books, I went and spoiled myself on some of the missing details covered in the books, and started looking at some theories online about the "big picture" aspects of the story.

And I have to say, the sci-fi theory put forth in this Preston Jacobs video from 6:40 until the end has to win some kind of all time award for maximum amount of tinfoil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jIfYj_guPo

You should read the "Tyrion is Daenerys's time-travelling fetus" theory.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Ellaria taking over Dorne is basically a stand-in for Aegon's invasion. It also explains why we see Jaime leading Tyrell armies.

What doesn't make sense to me is that supposedly Jaime in the Riverlands was happening this season? He obviously can't be two places at once so is that entire storyline going to be cut out or something? Were the reports wrong?

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Lots of good stuff and one horrible thing.  I was like, "please cut away" over and over...and they just drug it out......come on....I know where this is going....."please cut away, please cut away".



...



At least they didn't "show" anything and they didn't add a baby cry sound effect in.  I always have a hard time with kid death, even in a show as hardcore as this.

I think the only thing that makes the incident at the end of last season worse than this episode was the screaming going silent. It's absolutely horrifying.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Is there any significance to the fact that in the flashback, Arthur Dayne said “I wish you good fortune in the wars to come”, the exact same line spoken by Mance Rayder to Stannis before he (Mance) was executed?

There has to be. It's the second time they repeated a line in a flashback, and this is only the second flashback.

Also Dayne is an absolute monster. I wish they let Hightower kill more people to show how good he was (although I guess losing to Ned Stark isn't horrible).

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Incidentally, on the subject of where Jorah should go looking for the cure for greyscale, I suggest going back to Qarth, since this woman was telling him about "protection" in Old Valyria back then, foreshadowing the greyscale he'd be getting three seasons later:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fZqh-qw_0M

Didn't she tell Dany to go to Asshai? It'd be great if we finally got to see Asshai.

And then when it was time to leave, they send Bran on one last journey into the past, to see his young father again?  What was the goal there?  They don’t really explain it.  At the end, we’re left with Hodor being taken down by zombies, giving Meera about a 100 foot head start in a big snowstorm, with her carrying Bran’s sled by herself.  Realistically, wouldn’t they catch up to her in no time?  Maybe the writers should have scaled back the size of the zombie army, so that by the time the fighting is over, it’s just like 3 or 4 of them left vs. Hodor, to make it a little more realistic that he could fend them off long enough for Meera to get a good head start.  Instead it seems like dozens (or more) are left, and so once the door comes down, Meera’s toast.

I thought it was rather clear that Bran had to be sent back to that moment because the Three-Eyed Raven knew that Hodor needed to become debilitated. Like he said, "the ink is dry". Bran was always meant to cause Wyllis to become Hodor and without that occurring none of the present would be possible; without Hodor Bran would have never survived to begin with and the war would be lost.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

"Burn them all! BURN THEM ALL!"

Maybe that theory that Bran or Bloodraven was responsible for Aerys's madness wasn't out of line.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I thought it was rather clear that Bran had to be sent back to that moment because the Three-Eyed Raven knew that Hodor needed to become debilitated. Like he said, "the ink is dry". Bran was always meant to cause Wyllis to become Hodor and without that occurring none of the present would be possible; without Hodor Bran would have never survived to begin with and the war would be lost.
[/quote]

I thought there was something else going on in that scene.  You see Ned’s father saying goodbye to him before he goes off to be fostered in the Vale.  I thought this was meant to parallel the 3-Eyed Raven sending Bran out into the world, but it wasn’t explained very well.

As for the suggestion that they only went back to that moment because “that’s what always happened” in the timeline…if that’s what the writers were intending, then that seems like lazy writing.

If you’re going to play by the “there is only one timeline and it is immutable” time travel rules, then the way to handle it is to do something like 12 Monkeys (the movie, not the TV show which I haven’t seen).  The characters are aware of the rules of time travel, and it constrains the options available to them in the past, but they don’t purposely set out to complete a particular action simply because “that’s the way it always was in the timeline”.  Yes, what they do in the past was always part of history.  But their particular motives for doing this or that are their own, not to “fulfill destiny”.  (Which seems kind of dumb as a motivation anyway.  If the past is already written, then you don’t have to specifically set out to fulfill it.  It’ll end up happening even if you’re not specifically trying to make it happen.)

So if the only reason that the 3ER had for going back to that particular moment in time was to make sure that Bran scrambled Hodor’s brain according to the history he’d already seen, then that’s dumb.

[/quote]

I think about it from this point of view. Bloodraven obviously has greensight abilities, otherwise he wouldn't be able to instruct Bran in them. He has prophetic visions -- as in, he can see forward, and he can see backward, and he can do so at a far more advanced skill level than Bran or Jojen can. Therefore, he's likely gone forward and gone backward in his vision quests. The "ink is dry" speech indicates that there only exists one timeline in the GoT universe (or at least only one that is acceptable to greenseers). It doesn't seem impossible that he's aware that Hodor must die, and that he's also aware that Hodor receives his ailment at that specific moment in time. He also knows that Hodor becoming Hodor is necessary for the survival of Bran Stark, clearly one of the chosen ones against the White Walkers. Therefore, he must fulfill the predestination paradox and commits to that (who knows what would happen otherwise), not only due to his knowledge of time but also for instrumental purposes. So I wouldn't say that what Bloodraven did was necessarily only to fulfill a predestination paradox (executing a moment for the sake of the timeline), but that fulfilling the paradox served an instrumental purpose in the grander scheme.

So as per the complaint, I think only Bloodraven is truly guilty of fulfilling time for time's sake. Writing-wise, I think it was very good to have Bloodraven instruct Bran to do as he was bid by Meera, and for Bran to realize the extent of his abilities and the horror they could produce.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

How is it that everyone knows who the Night King is now?  He was mentioned by Bran and Benjen (presumably told by the Children offscreen).  But now in this episode, he gets mentioned by Tormund, and Davos mentions him to Lyanna Mormont as if she’s supposed to understand what he’s talking about.  Do the people of Westeros know more about the White Walker leadership structure than we’ve been led to believe?

Are we in the audience supposed to understand the relationship between the Night King and the other White Walkers beyond just the fact that he’s their leader?  Because if so, then I’m confused.

The Night King is an old fairy tale in the North (same reason that everyone knows mythology-wise what a White Walker is), as supposedly the story goes that he was expelled by the alliance of the King Beyond the Wall and a Stark. If you grew up in the North you probably were told it growing up, and that probably allows the other characters to learn about him from the likes of Jon and Sansa.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

Jon saw him.

Only people who have talked to Jon, or Bran/Meera/Coldhands, have talked about him.

But how did Jon know that was the leader of all White Walkers, or that he went by the name "Night King"?  And why did Davos mention the name to Lyanna Mormont, as if she'd know what he was talking about?

He doesn't go by any name. He's the Night's King because that's what Jon and the 3-Eyed Raven decided to call him, after the infamous "fairy tales".

Right, what I'm saying is that there's no reference to such fairy tales in the TV show.  The TV show mentions that the White Walkers were in fairy tales, but it wasn't until this season that we had any idea that regular people in the realm knew anything about the WW leadership.  It seems to be a retcon.

Apparently he's been referred to by HBO materials as the Night King since Season 4. They just never mentioned it on-screen until this season.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

A friend pretty much spoiled the entire ninth episode for me  So sadly, no predictions this week.

Huh? Do you know a screenwriter or something?

No, but apparently it got leaked online by some guy who was an extra on the Winterfell set for the filming of the battle and my friend read it and told me who dies before I could explain that while I love speculation and pre-season spoilers, I don't like hearing the super-detailed spoilers that tend to come out while the show is on the air.

It's gonna be Davos isn't it?