Winter is Coming (GoT is back)

[Gustaf]

I really hope that the departure from the books is "we're doing our own story now" and not implicit spoilers for the books.

[Gustaf]

I really hope that the departure from the books is "we're doing our own story now" and not implicit spoilers for the books.

I think it's a bit of both.  I haven't read the novels myself, but as I understand it, the number of different storylines being followed explodes in books 4 and 5.  The show can't really add 20 new characters at this point, and simultaneously follow plots in 15 different settings.  It just wouldn't work for TV.  So they're changing things to condense the number of storylines we follow.

But they're also going to push ahead and spoil future developments in the books as well.  The show is all but certain to finish before the book series does, and the creators have already said that they're going to be telling what's essentially the same story as the novels, and give us the same ending:

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/03/game-of-thrones-tv-show-will-spoil-books

Damn it, that sucks. My issue isn't so much with pushing ahead or even (so much) with condensing. But radical alterations are implicit spoilers, since things that get completely cut out can't be so important for the story. I don't want to spoil things for the non-book readers, but if Morden is correct essentially 90% of the show is irrelevant at this point, because about 90% is completely different from the books. So if the ending is still the same all those differences must be irrelevant, hence these storylines must be irrelevant. And that's a bit annoying.

[Gustaf]

I was a bit shocked at the Tommen-thing as well. What makes it worse is that they've made Margaery appear a lot more mature in the series. Book-Margaery (if memory serves) would have been young and immature enough that it wouldn't be very creepy for her to have sex with show-Tommen.

And yeah the Sansa thing is very worrying on several levels.

[Gustaf]

Killing Barristan was some bullsht. Fcking show creators.

[Gustaf]

Killing Barristan was some bullsht. Fcking show creators.

I'm fairly certain he's going to die shortly in the books anyway. I've always been under the impression that he was a character who was doomed from the start.

He's supposed to lead them in battle and do cool stuff first.

As regards Sansa I'm just happy they didn't go with the book scene there...

So, I'm guessing Brienne will play the role of Mance and the spearwives in this version, right?

[Gustaf]

To those who read the books I think Brienne will take the role of the spearwives and the rest of this storyline will play out like in the books.

[Gustaf]

The editing out of the Greyjoys is really weird. They do exist in the show, obviously, so I don't see the rationale in pretending as if they no longer do.

Everything in the books imply that Stannis wins the battle. That made me pretty sure he was going to lose. The show building up towards a Bolton victory gives me hope though.

[Gustaf]

I thought it was clear that this is a thread dedicated to discussing the TV show.  I get tired of sifting through discussions about stuff that only happened in the books, when everybody knows that they've diverged, and many/most of us haven't read them anyway.  Take it elsewhere.

I'm not aware of a separate thread for the books, at least none that's active. It'd be nice to see one started, but since (as you point out) such a thread might not attract enough traffic compared to this one to be viable, and since it would be silly to ban discussion of the books out of hand, just using this thread for both really shouldn't be such a hardship.

And really, if the books provide a clear answer to a question that somebody asked that the show hasn't evinced any interest in addressing one way or another, why not bring up the answer from the books? I mean, it's as good as any other explanation for Balon's absence, isn't it?

Did Balon not die in the show as well? I really thought that he did. I'm thinking that the Greyjoys will return for next season (it seems unfeasible to just ignore them).

And I also don't get the book hate. Chillax, Joe.

[Gustaf]

And I also don't get the book hate. Chillax, Joe.

Sure, just fill the whole thread with pseudo-spoilers for the rest of us.  Thanks.

Oh, the spoiler thing is legitimate. Why didn't you say so in the first place?

Though to be honest I'm not sure there is much to spoil anymore. The show is either caught up or has seemingly cut away everything that's happened in the books until now. Us book readers are about as much in the dark as the rest of you.

In fact, if anything the show is spoiling the books at this point, not the other way around.

[Gustaf]

I'm confused because they did the prophecy thing (and just reminded us of it as well). Surely they have to carry it out then?

I'm thinking that Balon keeling over would be a good thing to raise Melisandre's credibility for Stannis and might also set the stage for Euron making a foreboding appearance at the end of the season.

[Gustaf]

In Madeline's defense, it isn't that important of a spoiler (unless they're changing things dramatically from the books). And also she may have thought (like I did) that he was already dead in the show as well.

[Gustaf]

I'm not completely on the Stannis hate train. I loved Shireen, but consider the larger picture. R'hllor is as good as confirmed, and because of Ramsay's (ridiculous) raid, not only might Stannis fail to capture Winterfell, but if he is Azor Ahai as Mel says, then his failure also means the end of the world. If he loses, who mines the dragonglass? What other ruler in Westeros gives a rip about the coming White Walker invasion?

The rub is he's probably not Azor Ahai, though he probably leads Mel to the real Azor Ahai.

The show's choices for the throne are now a Lannister puppet, a man who just murdered his daughter for a small advantage or Dany.

Except, of course, the one person who may have a better claim than any of them and who probably is Azor Ahai.

Yeah, can't recall how obvious it is in the show but the books see pretty clear on who is Azor Ahai.

[Gustaf]

damn it I meant the Hound, not Bron(n).  (and yes I know, it's GoT, he (Hound) might not really be dead)

The Clegane Bowl theory is the one whacko theory I find very plausible (maybe not the actual Clegane Bowl part but at least the Hound being alive part)

[Gustaf]

It's really beginning to look like they're gonna run the book plot with Stannis v Bolton but with Jon Snow taking Stannis' place.

In the grand scheme of things this suggests to me that they're stalling the important plot lines, holding out hope for GRRM to finish the next book. I mean, 3 episodes in and what we're seeing is essentially resolving sideshow plots like Stannis and Dorne and essentially getting nowhere on the big stuff.

So far nothing has happened in the show this season that hasn't either already happened in the books or was very easily predicted after the last book (like the return of Snow).

[Gustaf]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that "nothing [not easily predicted] has happened," however. Sure, most of the major plot developments that we've seen have been the subject of theories and speculation for years, but there are also plenty of credible theories that either have not occurred or have been outright contradicted by events in the show.

Such as? I agree, btw, on the point of them not knowing where Martin is going. That is why I think they are afraid of deviating and are trying to buy time.

Take the North. If my guess is right and they're doing the book Stannis plot that's gonna be a couple more episodes at least. I expect that after Ramsay says "we need houses Umber, Karstark and Mandelay" and 2 of them have now joined him it's gonna be a thing about getting the Mandelays on board. Jon will make the same analysis and send his new right-hand man (no pun intended) Davos there. They will do the book plot of that. Rattlebone will go with some spearwives equivalent to Winterfell, with Rickon playing the part of Jeyne Poole. If that is the rough plan (and I strongly suspect it is) that sounds like it'd take several more episodes, which in turn suggests this season is gonna end with us knowing:

a) Stannis is out
b) Bolton is out
c) Jon Snow is alive and important
d) North rallies around the Starks

All of that is stuff we basically knew after the last book anyway. I feel the tactic is to get rid of the less important storylines, with the reasoning that since they are less important that can be done in whichever way anyway and not risk rocking the boat on the main plotlines.

[Gustaf]

Apparently, a couple years ago, George RR Martin gave the details of the last 2 books to the showrunners so they could start planning the show, and there 3 were specific "holy sh**t" moments"
1. Stannis sacrificing Shireen
2. Hodor's origin story
3. TBA

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin_us_57449e29e4b0aad87c8baeac

If that's the case it confirms my suspicion that Stannis beats Ramsay in the books - since Shireen isn't with him in the books he can't lose and die against the Boltons if he is to later sacrifice her.

[Gustaf]

I think Lady Stoneheart-con just dropped to 2.

[Gustaf]

I think Lady Stoneheart-con just dropped to 2.

I hope Lady Stoneheart doesn't come back.  That's something I think won't work nearly as well on TV as it did on the page if GoT goes that route.  I'd much rather see the show diverge from the books in that regard.  I'm hoping the theory that Arya goes with the theatre troupe to perform at the wedding of one Walder Frey's sons in episode ten and somehow poisons Walder Frey while she's there turns out to be correct.  It'd work far better in the context of the show than Lady Stoneheart would imo and it'd be awesome/emotionally satisfying on so many levels. 

On a different note, could another book-reader explain to me why so many people seem to be cheering for "Cleganebowl" and why people even think it will happen?  Am I missing something or does that whole theory fly right in the face of the Gravedigger/the Hound's whole arc?  We already saw the Hound and the Mountain fight early in the first book/season and even then the Hound was clearly trying not to kill his brother.  It seems like it'd undo like 3/4 of his character development for him to suddenly become a vengeance machine.

I think you might be right on it not working so well, but I'm still leaning in favour of it because I think it's kind of cool.

I think it is also beginning to look likely for a number of reasons:

1. They're sending Jamie and Brienne both to Riverrun. In the books this happens so that Lady Stoneheart can get entangled with them. I can't think of a compelling reason to do it otherwise.

2. It makes sense to keep it as a late reveal for a very simple reason. Book readers knew Jon would be resurrected partly because of the whole Lady Stoneheart deal having happened. For show watchers my impression is that it became more of a shock. So it makes sense to me they'd want the big resurrection of Jon happen first.

3. In the episode where that happens they reference the Red Priest. Seems like typical foreshadowing to me. And we know he is going to be in this season as well.

4. The way this season is unfolding I'm increasingly inclined to call BS on the whole "show and book are so divergent" line. They seem to be getting the story to move along very similar lines just in different orders. For example, it seemed like Coldhands had been cut by now he's back. It seemed like Jamie and Brienne being in the Riverlands was cut but now it's happening. Etc, etc.

5. It also seems a bit unreasonable that Arya would make it to Riverrun so quickly, IMO.
---------------------------------

Ok, Cleganebowl. I guess I agree - the weakness in the theory was always that last part. Why would he come back to fight? Then again, the fight has to happen soon. And who else would it be? It has to be someone special, I feel, and they haven't built up any character for the role as the Mountain's opponent yet. So it feels like it'd have to be an existing character. And I can't think of a good fit other than the Hound.

I also think that it's unclear why he'd be alive if not to do this. What else would be the point?

I guess he is fighting for the faith so it's not completely unreasonable that he might do it, not out of vengeance but because of piety or something.

[Gustaf]

Yeah, Tommen is a fcking moron.

The trial by combat is verified in the last episode no?

[Gustaf]

That seems bizarre why would he of all people be there.

[Gustaf]

Isn't indications that next episode will be all about #bastardbowl, similar to how the Wall battle against the Wildlings was an entire episode in itself? Then they'll wrap up everything else in the last episode.

[Gustaf]

A friend pretty much spoiled the entire ninth episode for me  So sadly, no predictions this week.

Huh? Do you know a screenwriter or something?

[Gustaf]

I'm a bit disappointed. Why are all characters so sh*t at what they do all of a sudden?

Jon's fcking charge against the Bolton army is unbelievably dumb and actually immoral. He was taking an action that would kill his men just because he let his emotions control him. Pathetic.

And we're supposed to believe that Littlefinger snuck an entire army of the Vale right up to the gates of Winterfell without anyone in the North noticing? How the hell does that even happen??

And why didn't Sansa tell this to Jon? They could have won the whole battle so much easier with much less loss of life if they had done that. Sigh.

[Gustaf]

I'm a bit disappointed. Why are all characters so sh*t at what they do all of a sudden?

Jon's fcking charge against the Bolton army is unbelievably dumb and actually immoral. He was taking an action that would kill his men just because he let his emotions control him. Pathetic.

And we're supposed to believe that Littlefinger snuck an entire army of the Vale right up to the gates of Winterfell without anyone in the North noticing? How the hell does that even happen??

And why didn't Sansa tell this to Jon? They could have won the whole battle so much easier with much less loss of life if they had done that. Sigh.

I'm basically in agreement.  The episode looked cool, but the characters acted dumb.  Would have been great if Jon had been able to come up with some creative tactics or something, or if the Wildlings had used some sort of guerilla tactics, rather than just charging straight at the enemy.  But alas, it was not to be.

The real reason Sansa didn't tell Jon was because the writers made it that way so that it made the battle more suspenseful.  In universe, it made no sense.  If she'd told him, then Jon could have just maneuvered his army to some kind of rendezvous with the Vale army, and they could have swooped in and crushed Ramsay.  But the writers had to make it this way so that the battle would start before the Vale forces arrived.

And I'm also disappointed that Roose (earlier in the season) warning Ramsay against earning a reputation as a "mad dog" had no pay off.  No one defected from Ramsay's side.  He only lost because the Vale showed up.

Yeah, exactly. Strong deviation from the book plot and for no discernible reason either. Ugh.

Also, can people please stop walking right up to enemies/strangers as if assassinations never happen? I'm thinking about Greyworm, Tyrion and Daenerys as examples from this episode. Also, is Dany gonna make it a thing to ride a dragon into battle without armour? Ugh.

[Gustaf]

One thing about "barely" having enough ships to take Dany's entourage to Westeros: Couldn't the ships make two trips if they have to?  Even half of her army would be plenty to at least hold onto some territory in Westeros where they could chill for a while.  Then send the ships back to get the rest.  How long would that take?  A few weeks?

It'd make for poor optics and that's apparently the only thing this show is about now.

I'd note that the whole luring Ramsay into the field thing makes sense but there is literally ZERO reason why Jon knowing about the Vale army would prevent that. You could do the exact same plan but with the Vale knights charging in 5 minutes earlier and have a much improved outcome for Team Stark.

As far as I can see the only reason to not do this was that they wanted a "cavalry arriving scene" for emotional gratification. Fcking morons.