Muslims on refugee boat throw Christians overboard for being non-Muslims

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Could European nations process applicants literally in North African ports and take them across in our own non-dangerous ships? That's the solution that first comes to my mind, anyway.

[ingemann]

Could European nations process applicants literally in North African ports and take them across in our own non-dangerous ships? That's the solution that first comes to my mind, anyway.

No, that's not really viable solution, all the people getting a no, would try to get after they had been screened. The problem is a lot of these people are not really refugees, but potential immigrants.

[Ebsy]

I feel like the difference between an immigrant and a refugee is just a bit of semantics and shallow justification.

[ingemann]

I feel like the difference between an immigrant and a refugee is just a bit of semantics and shallow justification.

Really?!?

You think the difference between your house being burned down, general pillaging and plundering, and being dirt poor but but living in a mostly peaceful place is semantic and shallow?

Well I think the European extreme right would love whatever points, which you make for that argument, because it would give them an excuse to keep everybody out.

[ag]

I feel like the difference between an immigrant and a refugee is just a bit of semantics and shallow justification.

You think the difference between your house being burned down, general pillaging and plundering, and being dirt poor but but living in a mostly peaceful place is semantic and shallow?

It is a continuum. And, in any case, in quite a few cases starving slowly peacefully to death might not be very much more attractive than being killed off fast after lunch.

[ag]

The humane solution, of course, would be a proper guest worker program, that would allow people to come to work to Europe safely, earn money, be able to save it and send it back home using the formal banking system, etc. If properly implemented, European governments could, in fact, wind up collecting whatever revenue currently going into the pockets of those "evil smugglers".

Europeans refuse to recognize the real problem: the huge economic gap between Europe and Africa. Mediterrainean is simply too shallow and narrow to prevent the population flow this gap is inducing. One can either accept this flow as a law of nature (which it is) and try to manage it to make it safe and profitable for all those involved. Or one can try to stop it by force. The latter, of course, is pretty much impossible (unless either Africa gets richer or Europe becomes poor) - and, inevitably, leads to the de facto mass murder we are witnessing.

Same pretty much true of Mexico and the US (with Arizona desert taking the place of the Mediterrainean). But, at least, Mexico is a middle income country - unlike most of Africa.

[ingemann]

I feel like the difference between an immigrant and a refugee is just a bit of semantics and shallow justification.

You think the difference between your house being burned down, general pillaging and plundering, and being dirt poor but but living in a mostly peaceful place is semantic and shallow?

It is a continuum. And, in any case, in quite a few cases starving slowly peacefully to death might not be very much more attractive than being killed off fast after lunch.

Yes I fully agree, but it's not those people who cross the Sahara desert to come to Europe. The price for that run up in thousands of dollars, and if you suffered of starvation before you started, you wouldn't make it through Sahara.

Most people who come to Europe are dirt poor, but they're rarely the worst off. Beside famines are relative rare even in Africa, it's mostly something you see in war zones.

[ag]

I feel like the difference between an immigrant and a refugee is just a bit of semantics and shallow justification.

You think the difference between your house being burned down, general pillaging and plundering, and being dirt poor but but living in a mostly peaceful place is semantic and shallow?

It is a continuum. And, in any case, in quite a few cases starving slowly peacefully to death might not be very much more attractive than being killed off fast after lunch.

Yes I fully agree, but it's not those people who cross the Sahara desert to come to Europe. The price for that run up in thousands of dollars, and if you suffered of starvation before you started, you wouldn't make it through Sahara.

True enough. See my next comment.

[ingemann]

The humane solution, of course, would be a proper guest worker program, that would allow people to come to work to Europe safely, earn money, be able to save it and send it back home using the formal banking system, etc. If properly implemented, European governments could, in fact, wind up collecting whatever revenue currently going into the pockets of those "evil smugglers".

I don't disagree, the problem is that we really don't need that many unskilled workers.

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I would love to hear your solution to that.

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Of course the Africa countries Europe border up to are also middle income countries.

[Velasco]

I wonder if ingemann is talking authoritatively of "dirt poor but mostly peaceful" places or what the hell he's referring to. I'd like to know what should be understood by violence. A recent case of an asylum seeker from Cameroon comes to my mind, certain woman whose life was threatened because of her sexual orientation (lesbian) and whose application would have been expeditiously rejected by the Spanish authorities if her case wouldn't have appeared in media. You only have to ask to yourselves how many applicants in similar situations are rejected by the 'civilised' Europe because, see, they are just "dirt poor".

Do the last shipwrecks deserve a single word from some of our posters? 

[ingemann]

I wonder if ingemann is talking authoritatively of "dirt poor but mostly peaceful" places or what the hell he's referring to. I'd like to know what should be understood by violence. A recent case of an asylum seeker from Cameroon comes to my mind, certain woman whose life was threatened because of her sexual orientation (lesbian) and whose application would have been expeditiously rejected by the Spanish authorities if her case wouldn't have appeared in media. You only have to ask to yourselves how many applicants in similar situations are rejected by the 'civilised' Europe because, see, they are just "dirt poor".

Do you think Lesbian or Gay refuge seekers make up a significant part of these people? The price the human smugglers take for bringing people to Europe means that travelling to Europe usual have to be a investment a whole family make, to bring one member of the family to Europe to enable him or her to send money home. I really doubt they would send someone they had expelled from the family.

These people are not just people who flee in the middle of the night, they have to plan the trip for month sometimes years.

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'

Well RIP, but I don't really think my condolences will ever reach anybody who knew them.

[ag]

The humane solution, of course, would be a proper guest worker program, that would allow people to come to work to Europe safely, earn money, be able to save it and send it back home using the formal banking system, etc. If properly implemented, European governments could, in fact, wind up collecting whatever revenue currently going into the pockets of those "evil smugglers".

I don't disagree, the problem is that we really don't need that many unskilled workers.

You do. Europeans are getting older. Somebody has to wash the old.

[ag]

Of course the Africa countries Europe border up to are also middle income countries.

Guatemala, Belize, El Salvador, Honduras and Nicaragua (the only four truly poor countries "behind" Mexico - Panama and Costa Rica are much wealthier, and there is very little migration through Mexico from beyond that due to geographic reasons) have the combined population and the GDP per capita in the ballpark of Morocco. Mexico is about twice as rich.

[ag]

I would love to hear your solution to that.

It is pretty straightforward. One needs an active work visa program for which ordinary people are eligible. Processing should be done back at home. It may have a hefty visa processing fee (as you know, these people are willing to pay a lot to get to Europe), but payable out of earnings once in Europe (renewal of residence conditional on paying the regular installments). The fee should be set at just slightly below the break-even cost for the smugglers. In addition, the worker should be forced to pay a certain ammount into a personal saving fund. After a certain period (say, five or 10 years) s/he should have an option of either obtaining permanent residency (and, eventually, citizenship) in exchange for transfering the fund to the state, or returning home and getting the entire fund there.

[ingemann]

The humane solution, of course, would be a proper guest worker program, that would allow people to come to work to Europe safely, earn money, be able to save it and send it back home using the formal banking system, etc. If properly implemented, European governments could, in fact, wind up collecting whatever revenue currently going into the pockets of those "evil smugglers".

I don't disagree, the problem is that we really don't need that many unskilled workers.

You do. Europeans are getting older. Somebody has to wash the old.

Yes the problem is that we don't need that many to do that and we will need them in 20-30 years, and we already have a large labour supply in the east.

Plus we have increased the labour supply in Europe several times by raising the retirement age. I can retire at age 67 right now, but I expect it will have hit 70+ when I'm in my sixties. It's rather universal in Europe that the well functioning countries in the north have a high retirement age, and it those who can afford to pay Africans to wash the old.

[swl]

Meanwhile another one capsized yesterday, with 700 (!?!) people on board. Apparently only 28 survivors have been found so far.

It may be the tragic event that changed the EU policies on refugees. The country concerned by the flow of irregular migrants (Italy, Greece, Bulgaria) have been complaining for years about the lack of European solidarity on this topic.

No sarcasm here, I would like to hear your suggestion for a solution to the problem.

If you are talking about/Syrians/Afghans wanting to leave their countries for better places, there is of course no short term solution.
If you are talking about hundreds of people dying at sea, there are solutions, see for example the EU propositions: http://news.yahoo.com/factbox-eus-10-point-plan-tackle-mediterranean-crisis-172945665.html. For example, the number of migrants dying at sea increased since the budget of the rescue programme was cut.

[ag]

The humane solution, of course, would be a proper guest worker program, that would allow people to come to work to Europe safely, earn money, be able to save it and send it back home using the formal banking system, etc. If properly implemented, European governments could, in fact, wind up collecting whatever revenue currently going into the pockets of those "evil smugglers".

I don't disagree, the problem is that we really don't need that many unskilled workers.

You do. Europeans are getting older. Somebody has to wash the old.

Yes the problem is that we don't need that many to do that and we will need them in 20-30 years, and we already have a large labour supply in the east.

Plus we have increased the labour supply in Europe several times by raising the retirement age. I can retire at age 67 right now, but I expect it will have hit 70+ when I'm in my sixties. It's rather universal in Europe that the well functioning countries in the north have a high retirement age, and it those who can afford to pay Africans to wash the old.

Well, it is all the matter of the price. At present, the wages are still very attractive to the newcomers. That suggests to me, as an economist, that you do have enough jobs In fact, you could easily avoid having to work into your 70s by getting somebody to start wiping your ass earlier (while paying into your tax and social security systems for the privillege).

[ag]

Meanwhile another one capsized yesterday, with 700 (!?!) people on board. Apparently only 28 survivors have been found so far.

It may be the tragic event that changed the EU policies on refugees. The country concerned by the flow of irregular migrants (Italy, Greece, Bulgaria) have been complaining for years about the lack of European solidarity on this topic.

No sarcasm here, I would like to hear your suggestion for a solution to the problem.

If you are talking about/Syrians/Afghans wanting to leave their countries for better places, there is of course no short term solution.
If you are talking about hundreds of people dying at sea, there are solutions, see for example the EU propositions: http://news.yahoo.com/factbox-eus-10-point-plan-tackle-mediterranean-crisis-172945665.html. For example, the number of migrants dying at sea increased since the budget of the rescue programme was cut.

Most of the items on that list are directed to increasing the number of those killed, while at the same time making sure that they get killed with lesser visibility to European media. Solving the problem is not on the agenda - it is more of a prayer that those black people just disappear from the TV.

[ingemann]

Meanwhile another one capsized yesterday, with 700 (!?!) people on board. Apparently only 28 survivors have been found so far.

It may be the tragic event that changed the EU policies on refugees. The country concerned by the flow of irregular migrants (Italy, Greece, Bulgaria) have been complaining for years about the lack of European solidarity on this topic.

No sarcasm here, I would like to hear your suggestion for a solution to the problem.

If you are talking about/Syrians/Afghans wanting to leave their countries for better places, there is of course no short term solution.
If you are talking about hundreds of people dying at sea, there are solutions, see for example the EU propositions: http://news.yahoo.com/factbox-eus-10-point-plan-tackle-mediterranean-crisis-172945665.html. For example, the number of migrants dying at sea increased since the budget of the rescue programme was cut.

I absolute agree that we countries without non-EU borders should help finance the external borders, and while I original got this lack of solidarity (Italians, Greeks and Bulgarians got free access to our countries against they kept the outer border closed), the situation have changed and they no only deserve financial support they need it.

[ingemann]

The humane solution, of course, would be a proper guest worker program, that would allow people to come to work to Europe safely, earn money, be able to save it and send it back home using the formal banking system, etc. If properly implemented, European governments could, in fact, wind up collecting whatever revenue currently going into the pockets of those "evil smugglers".

I don't disagree, the problem is that we really don't need that many unskilled workers.

You do. Europeans are getting older. Somebody has to wash the old.

Yes the problem is that we don't need that many to do that and we will need them in 20-30 years, and we already have a large labour supply in the east.

Plus we have increased the labour supply in Europe several times by raising the retirement age. I can retire at age 67 right now, but I expect it will have hit 70+ when I'm in my sixties. It's rather universal in Europe that the well functioning countries in the north have a high retirement age, and it those who can afford to pay Africans to wash the old.

Well, it is all the matter of the price. At present, the wages are still very attractive to the newcomers. That suggests to me, as an economist, that you do have enough jobs In fact, you could easily avoid having to work into your 70s by getting somebody to start wiping your ass earlier (while paying into your tax and social security systems for the privillege).

Of course the wages will be attrative to new comers, if we should continue to fill our countries up with third worlders until the price of an hour of labour was the same in London as in Lagos, we would impoverish the vast majority of our own populations.

As for the whole wiping my ass, my grandmother was in her late eighties before she needed help in her house and she never needed someone to wipe her ass for her, even through she lived into her nineties. As for me I would prefer a smart toilet to a Nigerian to clean my ass.

[ag]

As for the whole wiping my ass, my grandmother was in her late eighties before she needed help in her house and she never needed someone to wipe her ass for her, even through she lived into her nineties. As for me I would prefer a smart toilet to a Nigerian to clean my ass.

Lucky you. My granfaterh did not need to use an elevator till he was 84, but by the time he was 90 there was no smart toilet he could get to - and he needed somebody not only to wipe his ass, but also to turn him to avoid bed sores and to feed him from the spoon. I am sure you will take the poison before you you get to that state. But, assuming you do not do this in time, you might wind up in that state for many years.

You do not need the wages in London and in Lagos to equate for migration to stop. The last time I checked, I did not see entire Bratislava in Copenhagen - and the wages are anything but equal. AND there are no labor movement restrictions there whatsoever (something nobody is proposing here).

[ag]

Meanwhile another one capsized yesterday, with 700 (!?!) people on board. Apparently only 28 survivors have been found so far.

It may be the tragic event that changed the EU policies on refugees. The country concerned by the flow of irregular migrants (Italy, Greece, Bulgaria) have been complaining for years about the lack of European solidarity on this topic.

No sarcasm here, I would like to hear your suggestion for a solution to the problem.

If you are talking about/Syrians/Afghans wanting to leave their countries for better places, there is of course no short term solution.
If you are talking about hundreds of people dying at sea, there are solutions, see for example the EU propositions: http://news.yahoo.com/factbox-eus-10-point-plan-tackle-mediterranean-crisis-172945665.html. For example, the number of migrants dying at sea increased since the budget of the rescue programme was cut.

I absolute agree that we countries without non-EU borders should help finance the external borders, and while I original got this lack of solidarity (Italians, Greeks and Bulgarians got free access to our countries against they kept the outer border closed), the situation have changed and they no only deserve financial support they need it.

Yes, sure, you are willing to pay Greeks to kill Syrians, no problem there.

[ingemann]

As for the whole wiping my ass, my grandmother was in her late eighties before she needed help in her house and she never needed someone to wipe her ass for her, even through she lived into her nineties. As for me I would prefer a smart toilet to a Nigerian to clean my ass.

Lucky you. My granfaterh did not need to use an elevator till he was 84, but by the time he was 90 there was no smart toilet he could get to - and he needed somebody not only to wipe his ass, but also to turn him to avoid bed sores and to feed him from the spoon. I am sure you will take the poison before you you get to that state. But, assuming you do not do this in time, you might wind up in that state for many years.

Yes, but the large generation who need their ass wiped in 20 years, will live in a time when smart toilets do exist as they already do.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Maybe the conclusion you should come with from that, that the price on labour in Copenhagen are not solely put in place by supply and demand.

[ingemann]

Meanwhile another one capsized yesterday, with 700 (!?!) people on board. Apparently only 28 survivors have been found so far.

It may be the tragic event that changed the EU policies on refugees. The country concerned by the flow of irregular migrants (Italy, Greece, Bulgaria) have been complaining for years about the lack of European solidarity on this topic.

No sarcasm here, I would like to hear your suggestion for a solution to the problem.

If you are talking about/Syrians/Afghans wanting to leave their countries for better places, there is of course no short term solution.
If you are talking about hundreds of people dying at sea, there are solutions, see for example the EU propositions: http://news.yahoo.com/factbox-eus-10-point-plan-tackle-mediterranean-crisis-172945665.html. For example, the number of migrants dying at sea increased since the budget of the rescue programme was cut.

I absolute agree that we countries without non-EU borders should help finance the external borders, and while I original got this lack of solidarity (Italians, Greeks and Bulgarians got free access to our countries against they kept the outer border closed), the situation have changed and they no only deserve financial support they need it.

Yes, sure, you are willing to pay Greeks to kill Syrians, no problem there.

I thought I had to trust the Greeks, people keep telling me that in other threads, but suddenly they can't be trusted, when they guard the external border.

[ag]

Meanwhile another one capsized yesterday, with 700 (!?!) people on board. Apparently only 28 survivors have been found so far.

It may be the tragic event that changed the EU policies on refugees. The country concerned by the flow of irregular migrants (Italy, Greece, Bulgaria) have been complaining for years about the lack of European solidarity on this topic.

No sarcasm here, I would like to hear your suggestion for a solution to the problem.

If you are talking about/Syrians/Afghans wanting to leave their countries for better places, there is of course no short term solution.
If you are talking about hundreds of people dying at sea, there are solutions, see for example the EU propositions: http://news.yahoo.com/factbox-eus-10-point-plan-tackle-mediterranean-crisis-172945665.html. For example, the number of migrants dying at sea increased since the budget of the rescue programme was cut.

I absolute agree that we countries without non-EU borders should help finance the external borders, and while I original got this lack of solidarity (Italians, Greeks and Bulgarians got free access to our countries against they kept the outer border closed), the situation have changed and they no only deserve financial support they need it.

Yes, sure, you are willing to pay Greeks to kill Syrians, no problem there.

I thought I had to trust the Greeks, people keep telling me that in other threads, but suddenly they can't be trusted, when they guard the external border.

I do not distinguish between all of you, white men. Greek or Norwegian, you are the same to me

And, of course, I think you can trust Greeks. You can trust them to kill the brownies.