Muslims on refugee boat throw Christians overboard for being non-Muslims

[ag]

Maybe the conclusion you should come with from that, that the price on labour in Copenhagen are not solely put in place by supply and demand.

Actually, the conclusion (repeatedly cross-checked in many parts of the world) is that you do not need wages to be the same - you just need the gap to be smaller than the cost of moving. And that cost is large even for a Bulgarian in London (he has to learn the language, figure out what the Brits want and how to sell himself, etc., etc.).  Puerto Rico is not empty either.

[Simfan34]

The migrants from Ghana, Ethiopia, Nigeria, etc, should be sent back. There's no fundamental reason for them to have to flee to Europe. It's economic migration, i.e. immigration, not refugees. Syrian, Libyans, Eritreans and so forth are another story.

[ag]

Yes, but the large generation who need their ass wiped in 20 years, will live in a time when smart toilets do exist as they already do.

Well, if you prefer to be packed into a mechanized hospice, with a mechanical smart toilet for a companion and a mechanical tit to feed you the ballanced puree at designated times, I guess, you could do so. But it will, still, be a lot more expensive than that Moldavian or Nigerian nurse. And your kids will have to pay the difference: through taxes, probably.

[ag]

The migrants from Ghana, Ethiopia, Nigeria, etc, should be sent back. There's no fundamental reason for them to have to flee to Europe. It's economic migration, i.e. immigration, not refugees. Syrian, Libyans, Eritreans and so forth are another story.

Great difference there between Ethiopia and Eritrea!

[Simfan34]

The migrants from Ghana, Ethiopia, Nigeria, etc, should be sent back. There's no fundamental reason for them to have to flee to Europe. It's economic migration, i.e. immigration, not refugees. Syrian, Libyans, Eritreans and so forth are another story.

Great difference there between Ethiopia and Eritrea!

Only one of them is called "the North Korea of Africa"- while actually having less press freedom than North Korea.

[ag]

The migrants from Ghana, Ethiopia, Nigeria, etc, should be sent back. There's no fundamental reason for them to have to flee to Europe. It's economic migration, i.e. immigration, not refugees. Syrian, Libyans, Eritreans and so forth are another story.

Great difference there between Ethiopia and Eritrea!

Only one of them is called "the North Korea of Africa"- while actually having less press freedom than North Korea.

Yes, the other one is, merely, Africa's Cambodia (but with a lot less democracy and no king).

[Simfan34]

The migrants from Ghana, Ethiopia, Nigeria, etc, should be sent back. There's no fundamental reason for them to have to flee to Europe. It's economic migration, i.e. immigration, not refugees. Syrian, Libyans, Eritreans and so forth are another story.

Great difference there between Ethiopia and Eritrea!

Only one of them is called "the North Korea of Africa"- while actually having less press freedom than North Korea.

Yes, the other one is, merely, Africa's Cambodia (but with a lot less democracy and no king).

That is a bit much. Or do you mean modern Cambodia? In that case it is a bit generous.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

ag, why don't you support something closer to a "open borders" policy rather than a guest worker program? Frankly, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of millions of Africans living in Europe for 7-10 years without the ability to vote or organize themselves for the purpose of collective action. Your proposal strikes me as being a bit too potentially Gulf Arab for my tastes.

[ag]

ag, why don't you support something closer to a "open borders" policy rather than a guest worker program? Frankly, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of millions of Africans living in Europe for 7-10 years without the ability to vote or organize themselves for the purpose of collective action. Your proposal strikes me as being a bit too potentially Gulf Arab for my tastes.

Because I am realistic. My own preference is for much more open borders. But I realize that for a lot of people it is non-starter. I do not sympathize with their xenophobia, but I do acknowledge their right in a democracy to demand the policy according to their preferences - and I know, they are a majority.

Hence, I am putting on my economist hat here. You want to limit migration, while minimizing the number of deaths on the frontier? This is how you do this. Create incentives for people to use the legal route - and to go back, at some point. Such measures would, obviously, not shut down the migration completely - as they crucially rely on creating a legal route for migration. But they can be designed to achieve migration levels no higher than the present ones, or even lower, while crowding out the illegal route (once it is at a trickle because of incentives, enforcement could deal with it).  So, both control over migration flows, some degree of humanity towards migrants, increased revenue for the European state - and lower migration levels - could be achieved if such a program is designed well.

Of course, for such a program to be implemented, one needs to disabuse European citizens from the illusion that they can enforce the frontier against migrants to a degree that substantively eliminates migration - at least, without building gas chambers and crematoriums on a large scale. But that is another matter.

[ag]

And, if one has to be blunt about it, in this case the Gulf Arabs are no worse than the Europeans. At least, the give the jobs. I have not heard recently of hundreds of people dying while trying to reach Dubai. Better that way, then what Europeans are doing today.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I agree with your positive analysis of migration flows and I think that your assessment of the preferences of the European public are accurate. I just can't help but think that we live in a bleak world when guest worker programs embody humane migration policy and liberals demand that refugees, whether economic or war-torn, simply be deported rather than left to drown in the ocean.

The German experience with immigration in the 1960s and 1970s provides a solid rationale for a guest worker program in the vein of what you've outlined. I shudder to think why anyone would look up to Germany as a model of immigration policy but, from the perspective of xenophobes, they've done a good job of limiting migration while allowing for large labor flows.

[ag]

I agree with your positive analysis of migration flows and I think that your assessment of the preferences of the European public are accurate. I just can't help but think that we live in a bleak world when guest worker programs embody humane migration policy and liberals demand that refugees, whether economic or war-torn, simply be deported rather than left to drown in the ocean.

The German experience with immigration in the 1960s and 1970s provides a solid rationale for a guest worker program in the vein of what you've outlined. I shudder to think why anyone would look up to Germany as a model of immigration policy but, from the perspective of xenophobes, they've done a good job of limiting migration while allowing for large labor flows.

No disagreement here. I guess, this is a proper Mexican analysis

Then, again, I have been reading up on Mexican immigration policies in the 1930s - we do have quite a bit to be ashamed of ourselves.

[Platypus]

Welcome to this debate, Europeans. It never gets solved. We've been at it for 15 years now.

[ag]

Welcome to this debate, Europeans. It never gets solved. We've been at it for 15 years now.

Oh, the short memory of the young!

You have been at it for 115 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Restriction_Act_1901

Europeans, of course, have, mostly, been at it longer

[Platypus]

I meant in the particular context of boat arrivals from Islamic countries being an intense, vitriolic, and extremely unedifying national debate, but true enough.

[ag]

I meant in the particular context of boat arrivals from Islamic countries being an intense, vitriolic, and extremely unedifying national debate, but true enough.

That has also been going on forever.

[politicus]

Going after the smugglers now. Sensible. Naval operations is whats on the table so far, some experts thinks special force operations against targets on the coast would be more efficient.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/20/eu-launch-military-operations-libya-migrant-smugglers-mediterranean

I assume this is by now the official thread for the Libyan boat refugee crisis. Maybe the thread title should be changed?

[ag]

I think they should just enlarge the Mediterranean. None of those Africans are trying to get accross the Atlantic, so US has no problem. There is a clear lesson for the Europeans here. If Africa could be towed, say, another 500 km South, it would solve the problem.

[Simfan34]

I would support this. Maybe our mountains would actually start to have snow.