By 2:1 ratio, Republicans are more loyal to Israel than US
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  By 2:1 ratio, Republicans are more loyal to Israel than US
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Author Topic: By 2:1 ratio, Republicans are more loyal to Israel than US  (Read 6079 times)
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shua
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« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2015, 02:36:57 PM »

Yeah eschatological obscurity bad... Abrahamic Roots and clarity inducing "tradition of the land" good.

Roll Eyes you got me so good guys

You weren't arguing just that it was bad, you were arguing that it was antithetical to genuine concern for the Jews.    I know, it's weird anyone would care about properly understanding the beliefs of vast numbers of Americans on a forum dedicated to why people vote the way they do, right?
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2015, 05:19:17 PM »

What a gross misinterpretation of the poll results. "support them even if our interests diverge" in no way means "more loyal".

If Israeli interests were to directly contravene US interests, and these people continue to support those interests anyway, then yes, they are more loyal to Israel than us.  This isn't hard.
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shua
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« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2015, 05:25:50 PM »

What a gross misinterpretation of the poll results. "support them even if our interests diverge" in no way means "more loyal".

If Israeli interests were to directly contravene US interests, and these people continue to support those interests anyway, then yes, they are more loyal to Israel than us.  This isn't hard.

Sure, let's just add words to the poll question like "directly contravene" after the fact.
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Ebsy
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« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2015, 05:39:22 PM »

Stupid stuff like this shouldn't even be polled on. All it does is generate a few headlines and partisan bickering and solves nothing.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2015, 05:41:59 PM »

Full integration of all Israelis and Palestinians into one Israel with two judicial branches and a triple presidency (one palestinian, one israeli, one elected by all with a 60% minimum).  Call Belgium, Switzerland, and Italy and ask how they do it.  Let friendship root both sides out of the mire.

A two state solution seems unworkable so we might as well go all in.

Only the Swiss know how to do it. And even then it took them a very long time.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2015, 05:52:36 PM »
« Edited: April 19, 2015, 12:17:45 AM by Jöë Rëpüblïc »

What a gross misinterpretation of the poll results. "support them even if our interests diverge" in no way means "more loyal".

If Israeli interests were to directly contravene US interests, and these people continue to support those interests anyway, then yes, they are more loyal to Israel than us.  This isn't hard.

Sure, let's just add words to the poll question like "directly contravene" after the fact.

Do you ever get tired of spinning this hard for the GOP?  You do it more reflexively than most blue avatars around here!

There are no logical leaps going on here.  Some people were asked a question; they answered it honestly, clearly without (a) realizing the repercussions of what they were saying, or (b) caring.
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2015, 07:30:21 PM »

Full integration of all Israelis and Palestinians into one Israel with two judicial branches and a triple presidency (one palestinian, one israeli, one elected by all with a 60% minimum).  Call Belgium, Switzerland, and Italy and ask how they do it.  Let friendship root both sides out of the mire.

A two state solution seems unworkable so we might as well go all in.

Only the Swiss know how to do it. And even then it took them a very long time.

Yes, unfortunately if Israel and the Palestinians tried this, they'd end up like an ex-Yugoslav republic, or Lebanon.
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jfern
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« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2015, 07:35:19 PM »

Full integration of all Israelis and Palestinians into one Israel with two judicial branches and a triple presidency (one palestinian, one israeli, one elected by all with a 60% minimum).  Call Belgium, Switzerland, and Italy and ask how they do it.  Let friendship root both sides out of the mire.

A two state solution seems unworkable so we might as well go all in.

There's also Bosnia and Herzegovina. Those other countries didn't have a bloody war between the two sides that recently.
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shua
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« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2015, 11:36:26 PM »
« Edited: April 20, 2015, 11:40:07 PM by shua »

What a gross misinterpretation of the poll results. "support them even if our interests diverge" in no way means "more loyal".

If Israeli interests were to directly contravene US interests, and these people continue to support those interests anyway, then yes, they are more loyal to Israel than us.  This isn't hard.

Sure, let's just add words to the poll question like "directly contravene" after the fact.

Do you ever get tired of spinning this hard for the GOP?  You do it more reflexively than most blue avatars around here!

There are no logical leaps going on here.  Some people were asked a question; they answered it honestly, clearly without (a) realizing the repercussions of what they were saying, or (b) caring.

It's considered spinning for the GOP to think poll wording matters in issue questions.  You'd make a great social science journalist if you ever get tired of the whole oppo research gig.

Sorry I'm not going to be posting headlines from Rawstory and swallow them hook line and sinker. That's what we have you for. Do you want really more clones of yourself?
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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2015, 11:38:54 PM »

And proud of it. America ain't what she used to be. I love both, but I miss what America *was*.
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Sumner 1868
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« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2015, 11:41:40 PM »

And proud of it. America ain't what she used to be. I love both, but I miss what America *was*.

i.e., before 2009?
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shua
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« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2015, 11:43:47 PM »

And proud of it. America ain't what she used to be. I love both, but I miss what America *was*.

America. love it or leave it, you're either for us or against us. That's what we hear from the Atlas  every time the issue of Israel comes up.
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shua
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« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2015, 01:59:30 AM »

Bizarro Atlas Joe Republic starts thread, reads:
2:1 Democrats do not believe we should support our ally Israel! Oh noes!! Sad(!
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IceSpear
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« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2015, 02:20:05 AM »
« Edited: April 21, 2015, 02:22:02 AM by IceSpear »

Bizarro Atlas Joe Republic starts thread, reads:
2:1 Democrats do not believe we should support our ally Israel! Oh noes!! Sad(!

Actually that would be an objectively incorrect interpretation. The poll options were very clear.



Both options say Israel is an ally. The question is whether to put America's interests first or Israel's interests first.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2015, 08:37:02 AM »

Are these two answers even mutually exclusive? 

What does it mean to for the US to "support" a country?  The US is a country, not a sports bra.  If support means defend their basic right to exist, that's not mutually exclusive.  If support means, do what Bibi says, that's ridiculous and nobody would say we ought to do that. 

I would agree with both statements personally.  We should support Israel and we should pursue America's interests when we disagree with them.  It's not an either/or situation.
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shua
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« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2015, 10:41:42 AM »
« Edited: April 21, 2015, 10:45:01 AM by shua »

Both options say that Israel and US interests might diverge. How often do you hear that from politicians of either party?
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Zioneer
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« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2015, 11:50:26 AM »

And proud of it. America ain't what she used to be. I love both, but I miss what America *was*.

America. love it or leave it, you're either for us or against us. That's what we hear from the Atlas  every time the issue of Israel comes up.

Pretty much. Left-wingers only love America when they feel threatened by Israel. Pretty sad that left-wingers are jealous of our strongest ally in the Middle East. The only true democracy there (yes, Tunisia is one now too, but it's still young, I want to see how it progresses before labeling it as a true democracy).

Suuure we're jealous of a nation that oppresses the civil rights of Palestinians. You just keep on thinking that.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2015, 02:21:50 PM »

What exactly are you trying to argue here, shua?  I'm sorry you couldn't seem to grasp the poll questions yourself, but the respondents and everybody else here appeared to do so.
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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2015, 02:31:01 PM »

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Palestinians oppress the civil rights of Palestinians.  And Israelis.  Israel has a right to defend herself from islamofascists.  Would you rather be gay in Israel,  or Gaza?
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Sumner 1868
tara gilesbie
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« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2015, 02:47:45 PM »

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Palestinians oppress the civil rights of Palestinians.  And Israelis.  Israel has a right to defend herself from islamofascists.  Would you rather be gay in Israel,  or Gaza?

...
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shua
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« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2015, 02:25:09 PM »

What exactly are you trying to argue here, shua?  I'm sorry you couldn't seem to grasp the poll questions yourself, but the respondents and everybody else here appeared to do so.

I don't know how to make it any more clear, since you don't care for details and nuance. bedstuy gets it - the answers are not mutually incompatible. It asked which one better fits your views. It is strange that you seem to be not reading the actual words of the poll very carefully, as if they don't matter. You just take your first impression of the poll options and assume that everyone else has the same response to them, interprets them exactly the same as you do as if they had your own biases?
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