Vote No to the Electoral Reform Amendment

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I think we can all agree when I say

HANG THE REGIONS
HANG THE REGIONS
HANG THE REGIONS NOW

...but obviously we can't all show up to the voting booth when something like that is on the ballot...

Talk like that, helped to hang Fix the Regions by the way. Trust me, I know.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Complaints about the way districts were ran just ring so hollow to me, anymore. That was, what, 7+ years ago? We have boatloads more people than we did then and many of the individuals in charge have dramatically less interest in this place anymore, if at all. I think we've deserved another try.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Complaints about the way districts were ran just ring so hollow to me, anymore. That was, what, 7+ years ago? We have boatloads more people than we did then and many of the individuals in charge have dramatically less interest in this place anymore, if at all. I think we've deserved another try.

Um, considering this system requires an active process every so often, isn't that a bad thing?

[Marokai Backbeat]

Complaints about the way districts were ran just ring so hollow to me, anymore. That was, what, 7+ years ago? We have boatloads more people than we did then and many of the individuals in charge have dramatically less interest in this place anymore, if at all. I think we've deserved another try.

Um, considering this system requires an active process every so often, isn't that a bad thing?

I meant from those days. Sorry. Many of the complaints about districting seem to boil down to the way it was implemented by the people that did it back in the day. Such complaints can't last forever.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Complaints about the way districts were ran just ring so hollow to me, anymore. That was, what, 7+ years ago? We have boatloads more people than we did then and many of the individuals in charge have dramatically less interest in this place anymore, if at all. I think we've deserved another try.

Um, considering this system requires an active process every so often, isn't that a bad thing?

I meant from those days. Sorry. Many of the complaints about districting seem to boil down to the way it was implemented by the people that did it back in the day. Such complaints can't last forever.

I actually have not said much about the redistricting process since it was heavily amended. My concern is what happens immediately afterwards.

That said I would like to acknowledge the new found faith in the competence of the Governors and/or the ability of elections to push that from many of the same people who lacked such on a certain previous Amendment a few weeks back. Drawing maps is far more intensive then opening a booth.

[Prince of Salem]

I'll keep my regions and my senators. You can keep the change.

[ilikeverin]

Hello there.  I am probably the only Atlasian still around who was actually involved in redistricting discussions when they were still done (Al, were you ever a Governor when there were districts?). 

*Cough*

I was a governor during at least one re-redistricting process.

I didn't even know you were still around in Fantasyland! *hughughug*

Complaints about the way districts were ran just ring so hollow to me, anymore. That was, what, 7+ years ago? We have boatloads more people than we did then and many of the individuals in charge have dramatically less interest in this place anymore, if at all. I think we've deserved another try.

Um, considering this system requires an active process every so often, isn't that a bad thing?

I meant from those days. Sorry. Many of the complaints about districting seem to boil down to the way it was implemented by the people that did it back in the day. Such complaints can't last forever.

I just don't see any reason why the process would be any different this time around.  When implementing a 5-district plan, why wouldn't people mentally default to something similar to the 5 regions?  It's just too big of a mental signpost that people can hitch themselves to.  It's not like there wasn't turnover in Governors when there was redistricting in the past, besides me and bgwah, but over and over again the committee kept passing districts that differed as minimally as possible from the regions.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It's a legitimate concern actually. The trouble is that the at-large seats don't work now that well either: we just had an election with six candidates for five seats. The large national parties tend to approach these elections in a very considered and conservative manner, and given that it happens to be in their best interest to do so...

Though, again, I quite agree that regional senate seats should be abolished. Why are we so terribly tolerant of malappointment?

[Lief 🗽]

Because right-wingers reflexively vote against anything that they see to be anti-region. Abolishing regional senate seats would never ever happen.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Perhaps it could be pointed out that abolishing them and replacing them with districts would actually increase the power of the Regions? It would transform overnight the Governors into some of the most powerful actors in the game, and this, in turn, would increase the prestige of regional politics.

[ilikeverin]

It's a legitimate concern actually. The trouble is that the at-large seats don't work now that well either: we just had an election with six candidates for five seats. The large national parties tend to approach these elections in a very considered and conservative manner, and given that it happens to be in their best interest to do so...

I actually don't strongly disagree with that.  I myself did some analyses when bgwah once challenged me on that point, and, well, it showed that regional elections were more competitive than at-large ones.  But I'm not sure that having regions and districts does anyone any good.  One solution might be something like 10 districts, maybe?

Perhaps it could be pointed out that abolishing them and replacing them with districts would actually increase the power of the Regions? It would transform overnight the Governors into some of the most powerful actors in the game, and this, in turn, would increase the prestige of regional politics.

That is true, but one of the reasons why I support the abolition of regions is how very boring their politics are.  Maybe they could use more excitement.  I'm not sure.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Ten districts could be a lot of fun, but I presume people would be loath to abandon having midterms (even if only out of habit).

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Perhaps it could be pointed out that abolishing them and replacing them with districts would actually increase the power of the Regions? It would transform overnight the Governors into some of the most powerful actors in the game, and this, in turn, would increase the prestige of regional politics.

At the expense of diluting their voice in Nyman, a place that has a long and bad history of taking more and more for itself and leaving the regions with less and less to play with. Nice Try.

[bore]

Perhaps it could be pointed out that abolishing them and replacing them with districts would actually increase the power of the Regions? It would transform overnight the Governors into some of the most powerful actors in the game, and this, in turn, would increase the prestige of regional politics.

At the expense of diluting their voice in Nyman, a place that has a long and bad history of taking more and more for itself and leaving the regions with less and less to play with. Nice Try.

Is there any evidence regional senators are more pro regional rights than at large senators?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

None whatsoever. It certainly isn't the case in the current Senate; does not Mr Yankee represent an at-large seat? Does not the Labor majority (with its emphasis on nationwide reforms) stem from Regional seats? My observation would be that few Regional Senators have ever regarded themselves primarily as representatives of their Region (i.e. even the bulk of the RPP Senators back in the day were just party drones), even if Yankee - I think we may safely presume - always did.

[Lief 🗽]

Arguably the most "anti-region" senator right now is a regional senator and the most "pro-region" senator is an at-large senator.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

You confuse pro versus anti region with representing the values, beliefs and culture of the Region in question.

Are you going to suggest that the long history of quirky and/or far left Midwest Senators does not represent the Midwest's political leanings?

None whatsoever. It certainly isn't the case in the current Senate; does not Mr Yankee represent an at-large seat? Does not the Labor majority (with its emphasis on nationwide reforms) stem from Regional seats? My observation would be that few Regional Senators have ever regarded themselves primarily as representatives of their Region (i.e. even the bulk of the RPP Senators back in the day were just party drones), even if Yankee - I think we may safely presume - always did.

Is that why Jedi refused to vote for DWTL as PPT and nearly got kicked out by DWTL because of it? Are you seriously going to say that Duke was a drone? Or Marokai, or Smid or Tmth? These people were independent minded and were hardly party line drones.

And for the most part, they were in line with the values and beliefs of their region.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Arguably the most "anti-region" senator right now is a regional senator and the most "pro-region" senator is an at-large senator.

The only self-proclaimed pro-region elected Laborite is also a Regional Senator.


Hagrid still is pro-region or at least he said he was back in February in our convention. A year ago he was arguably more pro-region than I was, but granted a lot has changed.

[Clyde1998]

The Midwest voting booth is open - meaning that all regions that require a public referendum on the subject have opened their voting booths.

The South's legislature will debate in due course.

The polls close at:
Pacific: 1st May, 16:53 ET or 21:53 BST
Northeast: 2nd May, Midnight ET or 05:00 BST
Mideast: 5th May, 20:10 ET or 6th May 01:10 BST
Midwest: 7th May, 00:09 ET or 05:09 BST

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You confuse pro versus anti region with representing the values, beliefs and culture of the Region in question.

Are you going to suggest that the long history of quirky and/or far left Midwest Senators does not represent the Midwest's political leanings?

As an argument this is frankly nonsensical. It is gibberish. It is embarrassing. Of course the various Regional Senators generally reflect the views of their constituents; it would be hard for the to get elected if they did not. This is how representative democracy works. It is, however, certainly not an argument for having regional senators. Were there district seats instead of regional ones we can be sure that this would still be the case. We can also be fairly sure (Verin is spot on about this) that they would respect regional boundaries to a significant extent.

Any argument for regional seats must trump that of 'one vote one value' (i.e. the argument that malappointment is wrong and undemocratic), and 'but they represent their voters!!!!' obviously does not do this. The usual argument for such seats would be to protect the interests of the Regions as corporate entities. I would argue that these interests are better protected by transforming the Governors from irrelevant voting booth operators into real players.

[Poirot]

I would argue that these interests are better protected by transforming the Governors from irrelevant voting booth operators into real players.

No need to denigrate Governors. They are not irrelevant. They are important local leaders. They have a role in legislative process, they can veto legislation, they have power of appointments, they can help guide new players, they can recruit citizens to the region, they can work with other Governors etc.

I don't understand how it helps the game to denigrate many offices. When it's not Governors who are irrelevant, it's at-large senators who take part in boring elections and are less reliable. Before it was regional assembly who were called not important. And people don't read what candidates write during a campaign so what is the point of running for offices that are dismissed.

[Poirot]

At-Large elections are a shared experience by all the nation. Regional or districts are focused on a limited number or people. I don't have good memory of regional elections that are not from my region.

[SWE]

Are presidential elections not enough of a 'shared experience' fpr the nation?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

You confuse pro versus anti region with representing the values, beliefs and culture of the Region in question.

Are you going to suggest that the long history of quirky and/or far left Midwest Senators does not represent the Midwest's political leanings?

As an argument this is frankly nonsensical. It is gibberish. It is embarrassing. Of course the various Regional Senators generally reflect the views of their constituents; it would be hard for the to get elected if they did not. This is how representative democracy works. It is, however, certainly not an argument for having regional senators. Were there district seats instead of regional ones we can be sure that this would still be the case. We can also be fairly sure (Verin is spot on about this) that they would respect regional boundaries to a significant extent.

But the disparities between the largest region and the smallest renders that virtually impossible for a district system with an equal population requirement to provide the same representation to a particular region. So it is in fact an argument for regional Senators because there have been points when the Midwest was so small, it would not have a district that would be able to control, the surplus of another region would dominate it.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Are presidential elections not enough of a 'shared experience' fpr the nation?

That is the executive branch, not legislative.