Cooperatives Administration Act of 2015 (Failed)
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Author Topic: Cooperatives Administration Act of 2015 (Failed)  (Read 2459 times)
HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2015, 02:59:24 PM »

Aye
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windjammer
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« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2015, 07:26:21 PM »

The result of the vote:
Aye (6): Cris, Hagrid, Polnut, Talleyrand, Cranberry, Windjammer
Nay (3): Blair, Lief, TNF
Abstain (1): DemPGH

Hagrid's amendment has been adopted.

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TNF
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« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2015, 06:45:13 AM »

Any thoughts on a monetary figure?
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2015, 10:47:00 AM »

Not sure. We could arbitrarily throw a number onto it, but I'd be curious to know what our budgetary situation is looking like. Not that this would be a hugely expensive program, but it would be nice to know how we're doing before we agree to spending.

Is there a way just to group co-operatives in with small business and allow them access to the grants/support that already exists? Or is this the case already?
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Cranberry
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« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2015, 12:03:59 PM »

What are we spending on the Small Business Administration? I guess a similar figure should suffice?
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Barnes
Roy Barnes 2010
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« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2015, 12:08:10 PM »

This is an excellent proposal.  However, I agree with Senator Hagrid that it might be a good idea to combine the proposed administration with the Small Business Administration. The two do not have to become one, you see, but I do like it when we can effectively streamline government services to the benefit of those concerned.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2015, 02:28:07 PM »

Atlasia abolished its Small Business Administration several years ago, IIRC.

Perhaps now would be a good time to reinstate it, then. Unless there were good reasons for abolishing it?
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HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2015, 02:47:01 PM »

Atlasia abolished its Small Business Administration several years ago, IIRC.

Perhaps now would be a good time to reinstate it, then. Unless there were good reasons for abolishing it?

There was never much evidence in favor of its effectiveness, and in practice it functioned mostly as a subsidy to banks by providing backing for high-risk loans.

Hm. Interesting. So if one follows that same line of reasoning, couldn't the same be said for what we're now planning to do with cooperatives?
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Cranberry
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« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2015, 12:32:10 PM »

Nix's argumentation makes, as always, perfect sense. I guess I will have to refrain my judgement here on for the time being, would like to see TNF's answer however.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2015, 12:59:15 PM »

Yes. I echo the comments of Senator Cranberry.
I'd like to thank the Vice President for his input at the debate and looks like that also I will have to refrain my judgement on the bill and I'd like to hear Senator TNF's arguments about it.
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TNF
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« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2015, 06:55:17 AM »

I'd like to think that building enterprises with workers' control is a compelling pubic interest.
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bore
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« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2015, 08:10:16 AM »

I'd like to think that building enterprises with workers' control is a compelling pubic interest.

Oh my...

Further evidence of the Radical Gay Agenda
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2015, 08:11:55 AM »

I'd like to think that building enterprises with workers' control is a compelling pubic interest.

Oh my...

I pretty much agree with the Vice President here. Fundamentally, if workers wish to establish cooperatives to run a company, that's great. But I don't see why we should be giving them any special treatment including priority for Federal Government contracts. If they can't compete, they can't - if they can, they will.
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Cranberry
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« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2015, 12:23:42 PM »

Senator Polnut sums up my opinion pretty well and in a nutshell. (This rhymed, yay! Wink)
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Blair
Blair2015
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« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2015, 01:41:41 PM »

As I said before can we stop with this level playing field idea.

Every single emerging market has been given massive governmental support to help it take off-whether it's tax cuts for oil, funding for Monsanto farms or subsidies for wind farms it's clear that everyone supports the idea that govt should give a helping hand to certain businesses.

Co-ops promote a worker lead, progressive business that can contribute to society-hell yes lets give them a helping hand
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windjammer
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« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2015, 04:23:12 PM »

I really need to think about it. I don't have any opinion right now.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2015, 06:46:56 PM »

As I said before can we stop with this level playing field idea.

Every single emerging market has been given massive governmental support to help it take off-whether it's tax cuts for oil, funding for Monsanto farms or subsidies for wind farms it's clear that everyone supports the idea that govt should give a helping hand to certain businesses.

Co-ops promote a worker lead, progressive business that can contribute to society-hell yes lets give them a helping hand

Except this is not a 'market'. Industry support is one thing (and I'm wary of that) but this is support for a type of business. We have given some support to small business and usually as a form of stimulus during times of downturn. But this is just seems a big ideological high-five over anything without real economic imperatives behind it.

The other part of this, cooperatives generally don't need to worry about competing. They have a pretty decent success rate without needing us to artificially inflate their position. Let them compete properly, if the stats carry through, then good on them. Plus, Government contracting with public funds should be driven by the effectiveness and efficiency of the services they provide. If cooperatives can be competitive in that process, then good, but otherwise, we shouldn't be providing assistance to businesses that cannot otherwise compete.
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2015, 08:17:18 PM »

I'm generally more in agreement with Senator Blair on this. Even if cooperatives already have a decent success rate on their own, that in and of itself isn't a great reason to stop the government from promoting them further.

That said, Nix makes a good point about the economic role this would play and the fact that tangible benefits wouldn't necessarily come from this.

So I'm torn.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2015, 08:24:39 PM »

I'm generally more in agreement with Senator Blair on this. Even if cooperatives already have a decent success rate on their own, that in and of itself isn't a great reason to stop the government from promoting them further.

That said, Nix makes a good point about the economic role this would play and the fact that tangible benefits wouldn't necessarily come from this.

So I'm torn.

That's my key issue Senator, I don't believe it's our role to promote a particular form of business organisation. Which is why I agree with the Vice President that if anything, this could be a nil-sum game and we should just support the creation of cooperatives, if suitable, but not create artificial market forces and the expense of other businesses... which is what this Bill will do.

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TNF
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« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2015, 07:59:41 AM »

'I don't believe it's our role to promote a particular form of business organization'

Except that you do, because not promoting co-ops means spending federal dollars on contracts with non-cooperative enterprises.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2015, 12:44:05 PM »

I'm generally more in agreement with Senator Blair on this. Even if cooperatives already have a decent success rate on their own, that in and of itself isn't a great reason to stop the government from promoting them further.

That said, Nix makes a good point about the economic role this would play and the fact that tangible benefits wouldn't necessarily come from this.

So I'm torn.

That's my key issue Senator, I don't believe it's our role to promote a particular form of business organisation. Which is why I agree with the Vice President that if anything, this could be a nil-sum game and we should just support the creation of cooperatives, if suitable, but not create artificial market forces and the expense of other businesses... which is what this Bill will do.



I would tend to agree, except where the market is dominated by a few providers or providers who are all offering bad service. Throwing another competing force in with better service would force the others to improve their quality of products/services offered. Electricity is thus one example where I would support co-ops for this reason, to give people a superior choice in terms of quality of service provided as well as the cost.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2015, 11:11:33 AM »

'I don't believe it's our role to promote a particular form of business organization'

Except that you do, because not promoting co-ops means spending federal dollars on contracts with non-cooperative enterprises.

The government is not promoting anything by paying for the goods and services it needs to operate. Contracts should go to companies who can do good work at a reasonably competitive price. If cooperatives cannot deliver on those fronts, then there's a problem inherent to their business model. I'm inclined to believe they can indeed compete on their own.

And since we don't seem to be giving too much help to small business either, I don't see why we should help cooperatives instead.
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Cranberry
TheCranberry
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« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2015, 05:08:08 AM »

'I don't believe it's our role to promote a particular form of business organization'

Except that you do, because not promoting co-ops means spending federal dollars on contracts with non-cooperative enterprises.

The government is not promoting anything by paying for the goods and services it needs to operate. Contracts should go to companies who can do good work at a reasonably competitive price. If cooperatives cannot deliver on those fronts, then there's a problem inherent to their business model. I'm inclined to believe they can indeed compete on their own.

And since we don't seem to be giving too much help to small business either, I don't see why we should help cooperatives instead.

Exactly. Not giving one thing extra-bonus doesn't mean giving the extra-bonus to its competitors. There is no need for "if you're not for us you're against us" mentality.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2015, 07:10:48 AM »

'I don't believe it's our role to promote a particular form of business organization'

Except that you do, because not promoting co-ops means spending federal dollars on contracts with non-cooperative enterprises.

The government is not promoting anything by paying for the goods and services it needs to operate. Contracts should go to companies who can do good work at a reasonably competitive price. If cooperatives cannot deliver on those fronts, then there's a problem inherent to their business model. I'm inclined to believe they can indeed compete on their own.

And since we don't seem to be giving too much help to small business either, I don't see why we should help cooperatives instead.

Exactly. Not giving one thing extra-bonus doesn't mean giving the extra-bonus to its competitors. There is no need for "if you're not for us you're against us" mentality.

It's a brilliant attempt of circular logic, by not actively promoting something you're promoting something else, lol.
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windjammer
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« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2015, 09:43:25 PM »

No one had proposed a new amendment?
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