Opinion of the FairTax
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Author Topic: Opinion of the FairTax  (Read 2011 times)
Free Bird
TheHawk
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« on: April 25, 2015, 08:14:09 PM »

I've been reading up on it. I also do NOT want to see the term "the poor" used in discussion, because it IS progressive.
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aktheden
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2015, 09:00:26 PM »

I've been reading up on it. I also do NOT want to see the term "the poor" used in discussion, because it IS progressive.
Then you do not want an actual discussion
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2015, 09:06:25 PM »

The primary problem with the Fair Tax is that a shift from an income tax to a consumption tax would have a considerable negative impact upon our economy, even if it were done in a revenue neutral fashion.

And that's without even considering the disparate effects on various income groups, especially the middle class who would bear the brunt of this disguised attempt to cut taxes for the wealthy.
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publicunofficial
angryGreatness
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2015, 09:10:05 PM »

I've been reading up on it. I also do NOT want to see the term "the poor" used in discussion, because it IS progressive.

On consumption taxes maybe, but when it comes to income taxes it's insanely regressive.

Also the fact that it's named the FairTax like it's a brand name, and not just a "fair tax", pretty much shows how it's a proposal thought up by a bunch of soulless businessmen looking to sell their scheme for higher profits to the mostly tax-policy-ignorant masses.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2015, 05:23:51 AM »

Stupid name, stupid idea, stupid tax
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Mechaman
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2015, 06:04:20 AM »

Seems more like a gimmick than anything.  Barely more thought out than Herman Cains "9-9-9" plan.
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Mechaman
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2015, 06:06:27 AM »

I've been reading up on it. I also do NOT want to see the term "the poor" used in discussion, because it IS progressive.
Then you do not want an actual discussion

Yeah OP,

It is pretty pointless to have a political debate if you come out of the gate demanding a handicap.  You are in a position to demand nothing.  The only person who can make that kind of ruling is Dave Leip.

Taxes affect everyone, including "the poor".
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Zioneer
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2015, 10:46:06 AM »

Yeah, coming out of the gate demanding that we not consider the FairTax as what it actually is is silly and not honest discussion.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2015, 10:50:55 AM »

How the hell is telling a guy who literally says I DON'T WANT TO HEAR DEBATE BECAUSE MY OPINION IS CORRECT to leave "trolling", Ernest?
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King
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2015, 10:53:24 AM »

Needs work.  I'm all for simplifying the tax code but not for the interests of the super wealthy.

Any simple tax should get nearly all its money from the same sources our complicated system does.
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shua
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2015, 11:52:46 AM »

The fair tax is not nearly as regressive as one might expect with a consumption tax due to the proposal having a redistributory element in the form of a "prebate" - much like has suggested to compensate for a carbon tax's effect on the poor.  It would mainly only be regressive when it comes to a comparison between the sort of rich and the very rich - but then we sort of have that already.

The Fair Tax's questionable character comes from the major impact it would have on economic activity if it were high enough to replace current sources of revenue.
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Free Bird
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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2015, 01:49:49 PM »

The fair tax is not nearly as regressive as one might expect with a consumption tax due to the proposal having a redistributory element in the form of a "prebate" - much like has suggested to compensate for a carbon tax's effect on the poor.  It would mainly only be regressive when it comes to a comparison between the sort of rich and the very rich - but then we sort of have that already.

The Fair Tax's questionable character comes from the major impact it would have on economic activity if it were high enough to replace current sources of revenue.

See? THIS IS A DISCUSSION. I just didn't want the Atlas Democrats' quasi-socialist rhetoric to seep into the discussion, when socialism will never happen in America
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publicunofficial
angryGreatness
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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2015, 02:52:17 PM »

The fair tax is not nearly as regressive as one might expect with a consumption tax due to the proposal having a redistributory element in the form of a "prebate" - much like has suggested to compensate for a carbon tax's effect on the poor.  It would mainly only be regressive when it comes to a comparison between the sort of rich and the very rich - but then we sort of have that already.

The Fair Tax's questionable character comes from the major impact it would have on economic activity if it were high enough to replace current sources of revenue.

See? THIS IS A DISCUSSION. I just didn't want the Atlas Democrats' quasi-socialist rhetoric to seep into the discussion, when socialism will never happen in America

"I want to discuss things without people disagreeing with me!"
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CrabCake
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« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2015, 03:05:57 PM »
« Edited: April 26, 2015, 03:07:49 PM by CrabCake »

Seriously though I like the idea of 'rebates' - although it is a lot cruder than the dream of a Basic Income and the ending of the silliness of means-testing and state paternalism, the FairTax is a mess that allows high earners to get away with paying relatively little into the system.

Also, I'm a big fan of the spooky 'quasi' prefix effortllessly used above.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2015, 03:14:28 PM »

How the hell is telling a guy who literally says I DON'T WANT TO HEAR DEBATE BECAUSE MY OPINION IS CORRECT to leave "trolling", Ernest?
Leave Wink

More seriously, your one word post did nothing to advance discussion and also was effectively an "I'm right therefore there's nothing else to be said" type post as well.  Neither you nor the OP get to control what is said about the Fair Tax in this thread, and I expect everyone to be reasonably civil about it as well as in other threads.
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TDAS04
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« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2015, 03:45:43 PM »

Not a fan. 
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2015, 05:52:59 PM »

I'm not a fan of such taxes, but I'll throw out a hypothetical system that progressives might approve of.

When I was in college I received quarterly payments called the "Affordable Living Tax Credit". These were from the provincial government in order to "refund" the sales taxes I paid as a low income individual. What if the government had an expanded version of this credit along with fair tax. No income tax would be charged but individuals would still file a tax return in order to calculate if their income is low enough to have some tax refunded. Under such a system, you'd still avoid the distortions caused by taxing income sources differently, while perhaps avoiding some of the regressiveness.

Thoughts?
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Indy Texas
independentTX
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« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2015, 06:29:20 PM »

The fact that it is a progressive tax does not negate the fact that it shifts tax burden away from high-income earners and onto low-income earners. That's the issue most opponents of it have.
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Sumner 1868
tara gilesbie
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« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2015, 07:25:02 PM »

I also do NOT want to see the term "the poor" used in discussion, because it IS progressive.

As in the tax or the poor?
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King
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« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2015, 08:03:48 PM »

The fair tax is not nearly as regressive as one might expect with a consumption tax due to the proposal having a redistributory element in the form of a "prebate" - much like has suggested to compensate for a carbon tax's effect on the poor.  It would mainly only be regressive when it comes to a comparison between the sort of rich and the very rich - but then we sort of have that already.

The Fair Tax's questionable character comes from the major impact it would have on economic activity if it were high enough to replace current sources of revenue.

See? THIS IS A DISCUSSION. I just didn't want the Atlas Democrats' quasi-socialist rhetoric to seep into the discussion, when socialism will never happen in America

It could've been a discussion, but you ruined it. Shua began a discussion chain but then you immediately closed it by screaming like a lunatic about socialism instead of actually discussing his post.
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publicunofficial
angryGreatness
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« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2015, 02:13:23 AM »

If the Atlas is inherently socialist and you don't like the views of it's posters, why even come here? It's not like there's isn't a million other political forums out there full of Paulbots that love to talk about the FairTax and the gold standard.
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Figs
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« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2015, 09:18:34 AM »

The fact that it is a progressive tax does not negate the fact that it shifts tax burden away from high-income earners and onto low-income earners. That's the issue most opponents of it have.

I think this is mostly true. It shifts burden away from high income earners onto low income earners. They claim then that the prebate for low income earners makes it progressive, which is true to some extent, but then that prebate phases out, which means that it's the middle class that winds up really getting squeezed, while the top ~1-5% of the population wins out hugely.
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King
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« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2015, 09:26:52 AM »

Better than the FairTax, we can simply raise the standard deduction so less Americans will have to itemize.
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2015, 10:16:06 AM »

Better than the FairTax, we can simply raise the standard deduction so less Americans will have to itemize.

Reforming the standard deduction is more difficult than it appears. Standard deduction has little equity between the various filing statuses, and it encourages employers to suppress employee income to avoid taxation. Better to have a legion of part-time min wage people than serious employees. We had this problem already, before the employer-mandate made it much worse.

It's is best for taxes to be collected on the first dollar of income. The poor are shielded with universal refundable tax credits.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2015, 11:14:01 AM »

What most of you are forgetting is that the FairTax is designed to replace not only income taxes but also payroll taxes, which are highly regressive. The result is that all income brackets see a net decrease in their tax burden:



This raises doubt on the claim that the proposal would be revenue-neutral, but it dispels the criticism that it would be regressive.
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