Hawaii votes to ban cigarettes for those under 21

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

The problem with the alcohol comparison is alcohol is fun and tobacco isn't. If underage just drink illegally (not like getting alcohol is difficult) instead of smoking.

Yeah, alcoholic parents are so much more fun than smoking parents!

[Deus Naturae]

Preventing people from doing unhealthy things to themselves is in the public interest.  I don't personally care if people smoke (though it significantly lowers my opinion of them), as long as it happens well away from me.  But more sick people increases medical costs for everybody else.

The fact that our medical system is structured in such a way that individual health costs are externalized onto everyone else is a problem in itself. It would be better to seek to change that rather than restrict personal freedom and choice.

[© tweed]

That cigarette is not worth it, especially when you know it's going to cause cancer down the road.

you would prefer me not smoke the cigarette and take out the aggression on my half-tranquilized wife, instead of calming down and making a half-decent meal for the two of us?  how can you say that cigarette is not worth it?

That's a false choice.

I've been watching a lot of local news lately and all of the human interest stories invariably involve one of the men blaming their shitty behavior on alcohol.  'You know, I'd get to drinking and then I'd start to smack her around a bit...'

The day that all of these reprehensible excuses for human beings take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming their violence on substances will be a truly great one.  Wake me when that day comes.  But let's not pretend that in your scenario here, this dickhead of a character isn't going to beat his wife some other night if not that night where he has his cigarette of relief at 5:03pm.

well done.  we should try to communicate this way more often.  much of my 'act' on this board (as the Haters call it) is just to try to get people to diversify their ways of thinking and writing away from straightforward, essentially positivist narratives.

[Lief 🗽]

The problem with the alcohol comparison is alcohol is fun and tobacco isn't. If underage just drink illegally (not like getting alcohol is difficult) instead of smoking.

Also normal amounts of alcohol use aren't going to destroy your body and painfully kill you around age 50 or 60.

Also most people who use alcohol do not get addicted to or dependent on it.

Basically alcohol/cigarettes comparison is not valid.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Also, people ignore the role of tobacco companies pushing their wares upon vulnerable people: for example, under 21's.

The silly thing is that feckless legislatures have for too long relied on tobacco taxes as band-aids to fix budgets. Ironically enough, it is now the government that must drop its dependence.

[Maxwell]

This is tricky hairy pushing the goal posts. If you want to ban cigarettes, ban em. If you don't, don't. Playing with the ages is dumb and seems pretty ineffective.

[© tweed]

Also most people who use alcohol do not get addicted to or dependent on it.

Basically alcohol/cigarettes comparison is not valid.

about 1 in 3 people who try tobacco will become addicted to it -- which is a high number, as most drugs are in the 20s.  it's more or less on par with heroin.  alcohol is around 20%.

while the long-term harm associated with tobacco use is very great, its short-term harm is almost zero.  alcohol is extremely harmful in the short term, causing many overdoses, drunk driving accidents, violence, a whole host of social problems.  (there also are many long-term health problems associated with alcohol, as everyone knows).

in other words -- alcohol and tobacco both are harmful drugs, more harmful than many illegal drugs (as any pothead, EDM freak, or psychedelic enthusiast will tell you), but they do their harm in different ways.

the common line is "but if you use alcohol responsibly..."  well, theoretically the same is true for tobacco.  no study has been able to prove that smoking, say, 40 cigarettes per year is harmful.  and, violence and car accidents are to alcohol what second-hand smoke is to tobacco.

tl;dr. tobacco is unfairly demonized.  RJR and Philip Morris are no more evil than An.-Busch, or any other profit-making corporation.

[© tweed]

I think Tweed is not literally talking about himself pollspuff. 

hah, I sure give the newbies a thrill on my best day.  what I wouldn't give to have a benzo-addicted wife waiting for me to come home... not that I ever really leave.

[Sopranos Republican]

I understand wanting to stop kids from smoking, I get that. But the age of majority in this country is 18 for f**k's sake.

[Maxwell]

I understand wanting to stop kids from smoking, I get that. But the age of majority in this country is 18 for f**k's sake.

Yes. This.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I understand wanting to stop kids from smoking, I get that. But the age of majority in this country is 18 for f**k's sake.

Yes. This.

Granted, we probably ought to raise the age of majority to at least 19, if not 21. After all, the rational used to ram thru the 26th amendment no longer applies since there is no draft. Not that I think it'll ever happen in my life.

[Joe Republic]

Preventing people from doing unhealthy things to themselves is in the public interest.  I don't personally care if people smoke (though it significantly lowers my opinion of them), as long as it happens well away from me.  But more sick people increases medical costs for everybody else.

The fact that our medical system is structured in such a way that individual health costs are externalized onto everyone else is a problem in itself. It would be better to seek to change that rather than restrict personal freedom and choice.

No.  No, no no no.  Sorry, Yellow Avatar, but societal sharing of medical expenses is extremely necessary.  Otherwise people who have chronic health problems get raped by medical bills, meanwhile those who won the DNA lottery are set for life.  This is exactly why the clause that banned 'pre-existing conditions' precluding you from coverage is one of the most popular parts of Obamacare.

[© tweed]

Preventing people from doing unhealthy things to themselves is in the public interest.  I don't personally care if people smoke (though it significantly lowers my opinion of them), as long as it happens well away from me.  But more sick people increases medical costs for everybody else.

The fact that our medical system is structured in such a way that individual health costs are externalized onto everyone else is a problem in itself. It would be better to seek to change that rather than restrict personal freedom and choice.

No.  No, no no no.  Sorry, Yellow Avatar, but societal sharing of medical expenses is extremely necessary.  Otherwise people who have chronic health problems get raped by medical bills, meanwhile those who won the DNA lottery are set for life.  This is exactly why the clause that banned 'pre-existing conditions' precluding you from coverage is one of the most popular parts of Obamacare.

and besides, costs are already shared -- unless the solution proposed is to ban health insurance altogether.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

u kno who else banned cigarettes??/? ｌｉｔｅｒａｌｌｙ   ｈｉｔｌｅｒ

So rather than construct an actual argument you post a strawman that no one in this thread has said anything close to.

people in this thread were so hysterical it was only a matter of time.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

ｓｉｃｋ   ｂｕｒｎ，   ｂｒｏ．

You must be logged in to read this quote.

no, we know that, and we disagree.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

you know, i, personally, don't write up a spreadsheet every time i do something, but maybe you're right.

[TNF]

Ah, yet another state committing itself to the criminalization of working class life.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Ah, yet another state committing itself to the criminalization of working class life.

What?

Good lord.

While I generally agree with Joe on this, and smoking f***ing repulses me... but the sad reality is, it's legal and if the age of majority is 18, then it should be for EVERY-THING.

[TNF]

The majority of smokers are working class. Every increase in cigarette taxes and every step toward making the product harder and harder to get is a step toward the further criminalization of working class life.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

The majority of smokers are working class. Every increase in cigarette taxes and every step toward making the product harder and harder to get is a step toward the further criminalization of working class life.

It's only part of working class life because of decades of propoganda from Big Tobacco.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

So then working class people who don't smoke don't have a true "working class life"?

[The Free North]

The majority of smokers are working class. Every increase in cigarette taxes and every step toward making the product harder and harder to get is a step toward the further criminalization of working class life.

I think you're viewing the issue to narrowly, if anything these types of laws help working class people. As much as smoking may define 'working class life', the health care expenses created as a result of destroying your respiratory system are tremendous, especially for people barely getting by.

Preventing people from smoking in the first place may lead to better education about the risks of tobacco and prevent people from taking on enormous health care costs down the road.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The majority of smokers are working class. Every increase in cigarette taxes and every step toward making the product harder and harder to get is a step toward the further criminalization of working class life.

I think you're viewing the issue to narrowly, if anything these types of laws help working class people. As much as smoking may define 'working class life'

...

What the hell? There are hordes of working class people who don't smoke. Probably a majority based on smoking rates in general actually.

[Sol]

And anyway, considering the harmful effects of Tobacco, wouldn't pursuing policies to make it less popular be helpful to the working class, considering money saved from buying cigarettes/later-life medical bills?

[AggregateDemand]

Laws make criminals, rarely public safety. Liberal legislatures haven't figured this out yet.

Maybe I've got it wrong. Maybe Hawaii is just inventing a new source of revenue. Ticketing young people is like shooting fish in a barrel.

[Sopranos Republican]

And anyway, considering the harmful effects of Tobacco, wouldn't pursuing policies to make it less popular be helpful to the working class, considering money saved from buying cigarettes/later-life medical bills?

Well, if we did away with the ridiculous usage taxes tied to tobacco and alcohol, it would certainly lessen the financial burden on participating in an activity that people are going to participate in regardless of price. High usage taxes don't stop poor people from smoking, they simply either, A: Continue to purchase cigarettes and sacrifice on other things they wouldn't give up if we didn't have such ridiculous financial punishment tied to smoking in the first place, or B: Buy them from black market peddlers where no regulation of what's in the tobacco itself exist, and no money at all goes to fund (the already ridiculously overfunded) government quitting campaigns. I myself am working class and have pretty much chosen to give it up, but that was a conscientious personal choice I made because thankfully we live in an age where we know the health risks associated with smoking. But I didn't need the government to tell me I was too young to come to that conclusion (Even if they had, I would have just purchased it illegally like I do with alcohol.) I came to a decision based on my own thoughts, and encouragement from others.

The majority of smokers are working class. Every increase in cigarette taxes and every step toward making the product harder and harder to get is a step toward the further criminalization of working class life.

I think you're viewing the issue to narrowly, if anything these types of laws help working class people. As much as smoking may define 'working class life'

...

What the hell? There are hordes of working class people who don't smoke. Probably a majority based on smoking rates in general actually.

The point TNF is trying to make which I agree with, is that if the smoking age is raised, or additional taxes are levied on smoking, it only harms working class people. The ones who choose to smoke. It's the same thing with under 21's who like to drink. Most of us work extremely hard all day at school, work, or both, and we can't even partake in something that everyone else does legally. It's a system of de facto prohibition on the young, just like the state of Hawaii seems to be attempting to impose. And the only class that most young people belong to (with the exception of rich kids) is the working class, which is exactly why this is criminalization of the working class.

I understand wanting to stop kids from smoking, I get that. But the age of majority in this country is 18 for f**k's sake.

Yes. This.

Granted, we probably ought to raise the age of majority to at least 19, if not 21. After all, the rational used to ram thru the 26th amendment no longer applies since there is no draft. Not that I think it'll ever happen in my life.

... No? Considering that you can work and become part of "the system" at 16, if anything we should be moving the other way with the age of majority. Even if we don't go that path, it at least needs to stay at 18, since this is when most people graduate high school and go off to college and all that moving onto making your own choices. Oh yes, and the fact that pretty much literally every country in the world has it at 18.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I agree the drinking age should be 18 but tobacco isn't a good substitute. When I was under 21 it just made me MORE mad I could use a finksing disgusting drug that wasn't even remotely fun but not fun things like marijuana and alcohol. Underage drinking is so much cooler and more fun than smoking at any age.

Do the fun things like marijuana and alcohol and just completely ignore the disgusting trash that is tobacco, regardless of legality.