Bernie Sanders: 'What's Wrong With America Looking More Like Scandinavia?'

[All Along The Watchtower]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/03/bernie-sanders-campaign_n_7199546.html

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Spoken like a real socialist.

[The Free North]

If I wanted to live where the sun doesn't shine for half the year i'd just move to Alaska

[Hydera]

Scandinavia has zero minimum wage, wages are negotiated with the business owners.



Also.

http://www.government.se/sb/d/2106/a/163966

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So

+No minimum wage
+Balanced Budget
+Very high taxes on consumption
+Universal Healthcare
+More welfare benefits in place of having zero minimum wage

So if he wants to follow scandanavia. he can't campaign on universal healthcare and more welfare but at the same time he would have to campaign against the minimum wage, campaign for a balanced budget amendment and high taxes on consumption, especially on fuel.

[The Free North]

Scandinavia has zero minimum wage, wages are negotiated between businesses and sometimes unions.

But labor is powerful enough there to be able to bargain with both the state and capital so there is a lot more push back on issues like that even if they're not legislated.

Despite the fact that benefits have been retrenched by about 20% in the Nordics, there welfare system remains far more expansive than the liberal US system.

[Hydera]

Scandinavia has zero minimum wage, wages are negotiated between businesses and sometimes unions.

But labor is powerful enough there to be able to bargain with both the state and capital so there is a lot more push back on issues like that even if they're not legislated.

Despite the fact that benefits have been retrenched by about 20% in the Nordics, there welfare system remains far more expansive than the liberal US system.

Scandinavian countries actually struggle a lot to compete abroad, because of their high salary levels and high taxation. They don't have a minimum hourly wage rate set by the law, therefore it's de facto legal to pay immigrants well below what is considered the "normal" wage. This is a growing problem as more and more businesses must resort to hiring foreigners to keep their companies from going under.


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WgAgBzDMjZIJ:cphpost.dk/transport-minister-blasts-postal-service-for-social-dumping/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Also perhaps no minimum wage and more welfare benefits would be a fair exchange?

But i doubt it, since he's obviously going to campaign on both a higher minimum wage and more welfare benefits at the same time which is NOT what Scandinavia does.

[IceSpear]

I like the media's double standard here. "Is it REALLY possible for someone like YOU to be president?" because he's out of the mainstream on the left.

Meanwhile, they take nuts like Bachmann and Cruz seriously.

[Hydera]

I like the media's double standard here. "Is it REALLY possible for someone like YOU to be president?" because he's out of the mainstream on the left.

Meanwhile, they take nuts like Bachmann and Cruz seriously.

Can we just debate his statement first?


At the mean time i checked the swedish welfare website. (Google translate)

And welfare benefits can range from

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.socialstyrelsen.se/hittarattmyndighet/ekonomisktbistand

However its determined by municipality. Which means you can't just get welfare benefits based on the national economy but the local economy.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And at the same time those municipalities have to follow a balanced budget.

http://www.government.se/sb/d/2106/a/163966

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So if you live in a run down inner city or a dying small town in the middle nowhere... good luck


Also no minimum wage since that has to be negotiated with employers and unions.

[Maxwell]

Now definitive proof: Bernie Sanders is a white power candidate.

[ElectionsGuy]

I don't think many people are going to like the 'America should be like another country' message.

[Türkisblau]

I don't think many people are going to like the 'America should be like another country' message.

Agreed. My reaction and I think many other people's reaction is going to be "Who gives a sh[inks] about Sweden?"

[Hydera]

Corporate Tax Rate:

US: 40%

Sweden: 22%


Federal sales tax rate

US: 0%

Sweden: 25% (That means if you buy a car then you must pay 25% extra based on the value of the car)




So if Bernie Sanders campaigns on the Scandinavian model but doesn't advocate for all these factors


- Lower Corporate Tax Rate
- National consumption(sales) Tax of 25%
- Zero minimum wage that instead has to be negotiated between businesses and unions
- Balanced budget for Federal/State/Local
- Universal Healthcare
- Welfare system being higher in return for no minimum wage.

Then he's not advocating for the Scandinavian model.


In fact he's likely to campaign for a higher corporate tax rate, universal healthcare and higher minimum wage and not advocate for a national sales tax at 25%, no balanced budget.  Which is not the Scandinavian model.

[Orthogonian Society Treasurer]

Corporate Tax Rate:

US: 40%

Sweden: 22%


Federal sales tax rate

US: 0%

Sweden: 25% (That means if you buy a car then you must pay 25% extra based on the value of the car)




So if Bernie Sanders campaigns on the Scandinavian model but doesn't advocate for all these factors


- Lower Corporate Tax Rate
- National consumption(sales) Tax of 25%
- Zero minimum wage that instead has to be negotiated between businesses and unions
- Balanced budget for Federal/State/Local
- Universal Healthcare
- Welfare system being higher in return for no minimum wage.

Then he's not advocating for the Scandinavian model.


In fact he's likely to campaign for a higher corporate tax rate, universal healthcare and higher minimum wage and not advocate for a national sales tax at 25%, no balanced budget.  Which is not the Scandinavian model.

After this break: Bernie Sander... closet right-winger? You be the judge.

[Hydera]

Corporate Tax Rate:

US: 40%

Sweden: 22%


Federal sales tax rate

US: 0%

Sweden: 25% (That means if you buy a car then you must pay 25% extra based on the value of the car)




So if Bernie Sanders campaigns on the Scandinavian model but doesn't advocate for all these factors


- Lower Corporate Tax Rate
- National consumption(sales) Tax of 25%
- Zero minimum wage that instead has to be negotiated between businesses and unions
- Balanced budget for Federal/State/Local
- Universal Healthcare
- Welfare system being higher in return for no minimum wage.

Then he's not advocating for the Scandinavian model.


In fact he's likely to campaign for a higher corporate tax rate, universal healthcare and higher minimum wage and not advocate for a national sales tax at 25%, no balanced budget.  Which is not the Scandinavian model.

After this break: Bernie Sander... closet right-winger? You be the judge.

Same "all gain no pain" with republicans cutting taxes and think there doesn't need money to be raised to balanced budget.

Only this time its a leftwinger offering a poison pill.


Also before somebody mentions.

Here's the sources of revenue for federal US revenue



And for sweden.




The idea you can just tell people that taxing the rich more and the country will be a Scandinavian utopia is a dishonest poison pill. When introducing a VAT will bring in additional revenue to fund Scandinavian style benefits, BUT affect everybody not just the wealthy.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Hydera's posts are intellectually dishonest. It's pretty clear that when Bernie Sanders says that "America should look more like Scandinavia" that he is referring to a bolstered welfare state and large increases in public investment.

Your concerns about a "balanced budget" are pretty inane because America is uniquely positioned to run fairly high budget deficits ad infinitum. Typically, I'd only advocate for running a budget deficit at the rate of GDP growth but the United States is a peculiar case. Is there any evidence that suggests that America would ever be in danger due to increasing public debt loads? Anyways, quite a bit of increased tax revenue could be raised by increasing top marginal tax rates. Government spending could easily be reduced by incarcerating less people and cutting military spending. I could attempt to model the effects of Bernie's planks on the federal budget but this would be a fool's errand: we have no idea how his fiscal plan would affect economic growth, how an increased tax burden for the wealthy would effect tax evasion and what the effects of a single-payer health care system would be on health care spending, which would have a significant effect on the estimate of the cost of such a program.

 I think your attacks on Bernie Sanders' "platform" are very weak. For one, we don't know much about the structure of his particular policy prescriptions. No think-tank or policy organization has attempted to measure or model the fiscal effects of his prescriptions.

Obviously, Sanders won't be President, which allows him to be less realistic but I think that the overall shape of his plan is sensible and makes fiscal/macroeconomic sense.

edit: if Bernie supports a carbon tax, that would significantly effect your estimations of his proposal. A President Sanders could simply not have a "green shift" with reduced tax burdens but rather plow the money into his proposals.

[Simfan34]

Now definitive proof: Bernie Sanders is a white power candidate.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Now definitive proof: Bernie Sanders is a white power candidate.

This is more true than I'd like it to be. Bernie Sanders will only receive significant support from White America. He won't resonate with Latinos or African-Americans because of his register and the values he's referencing. He has no experience talking to these communities.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

Now definitive proof: Bernie Sanders is a white power candidate.

also: does not believe in global warming

[RFayette]

My response:  Hell no!

I don't support Sanders, but if I did, I'd hope he ran on a 1950's style economic platform talking about the "good old days" in the US.

[Hydera]

Hydera's posts are intellectually dishonest. It's pretty clear that when Bernie Sanders says that

How am i being intellectualiy dishonest when im posting as much as sources(one of which is from the government of sweden)?


 [/quote]"America should look more like Scandinavia" that he is referring to a bolstered welfare state and large increases in public investment. [/quote]

And how are you going to fund these investments without higher revenue including a VAT tax on all purchases, 25% is the average in Scandinavia.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

What? dude the last 30 years shows that you can not increase spending without balancing it either through cutbacks or/and tax increases. The belief that spending infinitum is ok is what caused the greek crisis and in the future without balancing increasing spending with revenue or/and cutbacks in other spending. The country will head towards fiscal insolvency.



 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Increasing marginal tax rates is not going to fund massive Scandinavia style benefits, if you look on the chart the US does not have a VAT tax unlike Scandinavia that bernie sanders said he wants to emulate.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Your still going to need a VAT tax on 25% of all purchases which will affects everybody. Scandanavian countries have been cutting military budgets since post-USSR collapse. so perhaps it is time to tell the rest of the world to pick up the slack.




 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Really? dude i posted a ton of sources and somehow its invalid because a think-tank didn't measure it?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Im sorry if you think that way that im just opposing sanders because of my signature. However i do believe that sanders is a sincere man but after looking at his statement, its much more complex than just "TAX THE RICH BLAH BLAH BLAH AND XXXX!!!!".  That' he's probably going to advocate.

Do you really think bernie sanders would advocate for cutting the corporate tax rate to the levels it is in scandanavia? his own base should just cannibalizes him if he actually talks about the real scandanavian model and not the imagined ones that the progressives here have made in a delusion where the country can just raise taxes on the rich and it will be a utopia. When things are more complicated than that.

[Thunderbird is the word]

I like the media's double standard here. "Is it REALLY possible for someone like YOU to be president?" because he's out of the mainstream on the left.

Meanwhile, they take nuts like Bachmann and Cruz seriously.

[Boston Bread]

I do like Scandinavian weather and geography, so sure.

[Hydera]

Hydera's posts are intellectually dishonest. It's pretty clear that when Bernie Sanders says that "America should look more like Scandinavia" that he is referring to a bolstered welfare state and large increases in public investment.

Your concerns about a "balanced budget" are pretty inane because America is uniquely positioned to run fairly high budget deficits ad infinitum. Typically, I'd only advocate for running a budget deficit at the rate of GDP growth but the United States is a peculiar case. Is there any evidence that suggests that America would ever be in danger due to increasing public debt loads? Anyways, quite a bit of increased tax revenue could be raised by increasing top marginal tax rates. Government spending could easily be reduced by incarcerating less people and cutting military spending. I could attempt to model the effects of Bernie's planks on the federal budget but this would be a fool's errand: we have no idea how his fiscal plan would affect economic growth, how an increased tax burden for the wealthy would effect tax evasion and what the effects of a single-payer health care system would be on health care spending, which would have a significant effect on the estimate of the cost of such a program.

 I think your attacks on Bernie Sanders' "platform" are very weak. For one, we don't know much about the structure of his particular policy prescriptions. No think-tank or policy organization has attempted to measure or model the fiscal effects of his prescriptions.

Obviously, Sanders won't be President, which allows him to be less realistic but I think that the overall shape of his plan is sensible and makes fiscal/macroeconomic sense.

edit: if Bernie supports a carbon tax, that would significantly effect your estimations of his proposal. A President Sanders could simply not have a "green shift" with reduced tax burdens but rather plow the money into his proposals.

Furthermore even if you cut the total federal&state&local money used to spend on prisons for a year which is 84 billion for the year of 2013.  And use it for social welfare.

40 billion is going to get burned through REALLY REALLY fast.



http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/G160121A027NBEA


Besides the majority of people in total for state+federal prison, is for violent crime.


Only 22% is for drug related. the rest being a combination of violent+property+public order(drunk driving, illegal weapons possession)


http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p13.pdf


>Drug offenders comprised 16% (210,200 inmates) of the total state prison population in 2012. + Drug related in federal prisons(98,000)/1,451,000)


So $16.8 billion(0.20 x 84) is going to get burned really fast in one year.


Federal prison spending: 7.3 billion

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/G160511A027NBEA

State prison spending: 78 billion

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/G160881A027NBEA


7.3 x 0.50+0.16 X 0.78= 16.1 billion

So yeah, 16.1 billion is going to get burned through really quick.

[publicunofficial]

My response:  Hell no!

I don't support Sanders, but if I did, I'd hope he ran on a 1950's style economic platform talking about the "good old days" in the US.

You'd support him if he was a Republican?

[Hydera]

My response:  Hell no!

I don't support Sanders, but if I did, I'd hope he ran on a 1950's style economic platform talking about the "good old days" in the US.

You'd support him if he was a Republican?

Military spending was raised really big when Ike came into office so im not sure if a 50's platform is a great thing...