Labour Party leadership election 2015

[Phony Moderate]

Though ironically Brown's reaction to the crash itself was widely praised and seen as the high point of his premiership. The aftermath of the crash however...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I will not pretend to be an expert, but Vauxhall remains in business and is manufacturing cars, yes? That may suggest something as to the fate of non-state owned comparable firms.

Vauxhall has been owned by GM since the 1920s. The only British owned - plenty of large car factories here, all of them owned by foreign companies - car firms to have survived are those that cater to the luxury market.

In any case (as has already been hinted at) British Leyland was only nationalised because it was bankrupt (i.e. its issues can't be placed at the door of state ownership) and because it had a workforce in the hundreds of thousands.

[Phony Moderate]

Burnham has come out in favour of rail re-nationalization.

[doktorb]

Burnham has come out in favour of rail re-nationalization.

And in doing so, looks every inch the opportunist his critics say he is

[Zinneke]

Burnham has come out in favour of rail re-nationalization.

And in doing so, looks every inch the opportunist his critics say he is

At the same time this isn't a radical position to take up. Rail services are a natural monopoly. Even liberalism 101 advocates this. I think we can give Burnham the benefit of the doubt, and acknowledge instead that Corbyn could have a positive effect on British society by actually debating these issues.

I'm just trying to stay positive as the entire centre-left tears itself apart in Europe. Speaking of which, I believe it is the EU that encourage rail privatisation IIRC.

[Zanas]

Burnham has come out in favour of rail re-nationalization.

And in doing so, looks every inch the opportunist his critics say he is

At the same time this isn't a radical position to take up. Rail services are a natural monopoly. Even liberalism 101 advocates this. I think we can give Burnham the benefit of the doubt, and acknowledge instead that Corbyn could have a positive effect on British society by actually debating these issues.

I'm just trying to stay positive as the entire centre-left tears itself apart in Europe. Speaking of which, I believe it is the EU that encourage rail privatisation IIRC.

I would be hesitating between laughing my ass off or crying a river if the Brits were to re-nationalize all rail service into a monopoly at the same time we Frogs open it to competition...

[Blair]

Tbh Blair's biggest mistake (well there's a lot of them) was not trying to push harder to nationalize it. Talking to my tory relatives they seem to think it's mad that Major sold it off-heck didn't Thatcher call it the poll tax on wheels?

The problem is that Burnham looks rather like he's trying to copy Corbyn. He's had to ditch his whole campaign plan of not looking too left wing since he expected to be fighting Cooper

[Phony Moderate]

Tbh Blair's biggest mistake (well there's a lot of them) was not trying to push harder to nationalize it. Talking to my tory relatives they seem to think it's mad that Major sold it off-heck didn't Thatcher call it the poll tax on wheels?

Blair didn't because he knew he would have lost the backing of the Murdoch press.

[YL]

Tbh Blair's biggest mistake (well there's a lot of them) was not trying to push harder to nationalize it. Talking to my tory relatives they seem to think it's mad that Major sold it off-heck didn't Thatcher call it the poll tax on wheels?

"Poll tax on wheels" is usually attributed to Robert Adley, a dripping wet Tory MP for Christchurch (it was his death which caused the 1993 by-election there which the Lib Dems won with a huge majority) who was also a railway enthusiast.

[ChrisDR68]

Tbh Blair's biggest mistake (well there's a lot of them) was not trying to push harder to nationalize it. Talking to my tory relatives they seem to think it's mad that Major sold it off-heck didn't Thatcher call it the poll tax on wheels?

The problem is that Burnham looks rather like he's trying to copy Corbyn. He's had to ditch his whole campaign plan of not looking too left wing since he expected to be fighting Cooper

The interesting thing is that since privatisation there has been a dramatic spike in passenger numbers according to this graph:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/GBR_rail_passengers_by_year.png 

Maybe people are in favour of nationisation in an abstract way without thinking carefully about what British Rail was actually like to use on a day-to-day basis before 1995.

[MaxQue]

Tbh Blair's biggest mistake (well there's a lot of them) was not trying to push harder to nationalize it. Talking to my tory relatives they seem to think it's mad that Major sold it off-heck didn't Thatcher call it the poll tax on wheels?

The problem is that Burnham looks rather like he's trying to copy Corbyn. He's had to ditch his whole campaign plan of not looking too left wing since he expected to be fighting Cooper

The interesting thing is that since privatisation there has been a dramatic spike in passenger numbers according to this graph:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/GBR_rail_passengers_by_year.png 

Maybe people are in favour of nationisation in an abstract way without thinking carefully about what British Rail was actually like to use on a day-to-day basis before 1995.

But, does a correlation exist? Or the rise is due to young people having less car + train seen as more green than a car for long travel? Or a mix of these?

And, even then, why it would suddently run badly as soon it's nationalized?

[Phony Moderate]

Surely far more people could walk to work twenty years ago.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Possibly due to (pick one) the 300% increase in public subsidy, the rise in commuter jobs especially in London and urban areas, the increased cost in motoring and/or GDP growth.

Anyway, the unions are attacking Burnham's line-by-line renatiomalisation plan.

[Blair]

Possibly due to (pick one) the 300% increase in public subsidy, the rise in commuter jobs especially in London and urban areas, the increased cost in motoring and/or GDP growth.

Anyway, the unions are attacking Burnham's line-by-line renatiomalisation plan.

On trains as someone who uses southern it's clear the current situation is awful-we're paying them something like £600 million a year to run an awful service

Well, it's not worth Burnham winning if he commits himself to a $10 billion plan to do it all in one sitting. As I said before the problem is that Burnhams plan was to try and make himself look less left wing-hence why he declined trade union funding, opposed mansion tax, took a tougher stance on immigration.

It does seem (maybe it's wishful thinking) that there's been a curb to Corbyn's momentum with Johnson, Kinnock and now Cruddas coming out

[Silent Hunter]

On trains as someone who uses southern it's clear the current situation is awful-we're paying them something like £600 million a year to run an awful service

Ironically, Southern is part-owned by SNCF!

I'm a rail enthusiast myself and personally I don't really care who runs them provided they do a good job. I regularly use c2c myself and must say they're generally excellent.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Opium Opinium has a poll but of Labour supporters rather than members/etc so I don't know about the value, but here it is anyway: Burnham 39, Corbyn 24, Cooper 22, Kendall 15.

[Simfan34]

Burnham has come out in favour of rail re-nationalization.

I don't think this is a terrible idea.

[joevsimp]

On trains as someone who uses southern it's clear the current situation is awful-we're paying them something like £600 million a year to run an awful service

Ironically, Southern is part-owned by SNCF!

I'm a rail enthusiast myself and personally I don't really care who runs them provided they do a good job. I regularly use c2c myself and must say they're generally excellent.

that probably is the best improved toc, probably because its small, manageable and doesn't have any branch lines to cross subsidise, I'm a bit young to remember it pre-nationalisation (apart from trips to the Southend Air Show), but it was pretty dire up to about 2003 and the timetable still isnt great on the Grays service

[Blair]

Opium Opinium has a poll but of Labour supporters rather than members/etc so I don't know about the value, but here it is anyway: Burnham 39, Corbyn 24, Cooper 22, Kendall 15.

Saw this earlier, appears to be another slightly altered poll in the sense it wasn't just voters. Although it shows that Burnham has popularity with the voting public, and although I'm biased out of the 4 Burnham is the person who can get the best result in 2020-Kendall has run an awful campaign and her bubble burst after the first week, Cooper is trying not to offend anyone and has build her campaign around 'muh high tech jobs'. Likewise her insistence on denying the 2007 spending gap combined with her being a brownite means she wont' be trusted with the finances. Corbyn, well some people think that the 40% who don't vote will all jump up for a 66 year old socialist-I don't know

[ChrisDR68]

He only seriously connected with Middle England (or any other part of the country) in 1997; the 2001 and 2005 elections were won with less votes than in both 1992 and 1979.

2001 was largely due to falling turnout (from 71% down to 59%). The 41% Labour achieved in that general election is still impressive when you view the party's share of the popular vote from February 1974 onwards:

1974 37.1% Feb
1974 39.2% Oct
1979 36.9%
1983 27.6%
1987 30.8%
1992 34.4%
1997 43.2%
2001 40.7%
2005 35.2%
2010 29.0%
2015 30.4%

In his 2 landslides Blair really was Mr. Heineken. Reaching parts of the electorate that the Labour Party has struggled (and generally failed) to reach over a very long period of time.

[YL]

He only seriously connected with Middle England (or any other part of the country) in 1997; the 2001 and 2005 elections were won with less votes than in both 1992 and 1979.

2001 was largely due to falling turnout (from 71% down to 59%). The 41% Labour achieved in that general election is still impressive when you view the party's share of the popular vote from February 1974 onwards:

1974 37.1% Feb
1974 39.2% Oct
1979 36.9%
1983 27.6%
1987 30.8%
1992 34.4%
1997 43.2%
2001 40.7%
2005 35.2%
2010 29.0%
2015 30.4%

In his 2 landslides Blair really was Mr. Heineken. Reaching parts of the electorate that the Labour Party has struggled (and generally failed) to reach over a very long period of time.

Not denying that he was popular, but those results did have a lot to do with the state the other main party was in at the time.

[Phony Moderate]

He only seriously connected with Middle England (or any other part of the country) in 1997; the 2001 and 2005 elections were won with less votes than in both 1992 and 1979.

2001 was largely due to falling turnout (from 71% down to 59%).

Which is largely my point. The country was quietly satisifed with him but it wasn't enthusiastic.

[Blair]

I think the main thing about Blair was that he was able to win and hold seats that labour quite frankly look like they'll not win for years. Whilst the tories clearly were in a bad state in 1997, 2001 and 2005 I'd still struggle to see someone like Smith, Brown or cook winning 4 times in a row. I mean the scale of Labours victory in 1997 is likely to be unseen for the next 20 years

Blair had that rather unique ability to milk major events like the James Bulger murder or Diana's death and connect with the public. People trusted him to govern, even though they didn't like him (in 2005)

Looking back on 2015 I'm still amazed labour only got 30% of the vote, and also managed to lose seats it won in 2010. I was before the election a massive fan of Miliband but something clearly went very wrong for us to do so badly

[Phony Moderate]

Tbh I'm beginning to respect Kendall for being so consistent in her awfulness. She's still getting last preference from me though.

[Blair]

Tbh I'm beginning to respect Kendall for being so consistent in her awfulness. She's still getting last preference from me though.

That's the only excitement in my own leadership race-Kendall or Corbyn for 4th place. The Human in me wants to give it to Corbyn because when I spoke to him he was a completely decent bloke, although I feel sorry for Kendall because she's volunteered to be in the stocks since may.

Looking at the polls it's hilarious that the Blairite candidate is going to get the levels of support that Dianne Abbott got in 2010 whilst the far left candidate is going to get above what David Miliband got in 2015. It's a strange old party