Labour Party leadership election 2015
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Author Topic: Labour Party leadership election 2015  (Read 138749 times)
Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #550 on: July 31, 2015, 08:56:07 AM »

The deadline for submission of CLP supporting nominations is midday today. Last night would have therefore been the last night of CLP nomination meetings.
When HQ releases the official list of nominations, it will be interesting to see which CLPs we didn't take note of, or which CLPs forgot to offically submit their nominations!

Keeping track has been nightmarish...
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Zanas
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« Reply #551 on: July 31, 2015, 10:57:11 AM »

How can a land value tax possibly replace the income tax? How would this work? The rates needed to generate revenue on the scale of income tax would presumably have to be so high that I imagine that land ownership would become a dicey proposition financially very quickly. Is there not a property tax in the UK at the moment?

Or does he think it's 1915, and wants to break up the estates?
Moreover, isn't there a peculiarity that, in reality, no one really owns their land in the UK, since the Crown really owns everything ?
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ViaActiva
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« Reply #552 on: July 31, 2015, 11:59:14 AM »
« Edited: July 31, 2015, 12:01:28 PM by ViaActiva »

I also neglected to mention Benn, of course, who was nuts.

Rates Ben Bradshaw but classes Benn as nuts.

Rates Ben Bradshaw.

Classes Benn as nuts.

...

Hey it's not just me who's claimed that Benn was nuts. So did Michael Foot, Neil Kinnock and Harold Wilson - but I guess that makes them Blairites in the modern parlance of the Labour Party right?

This is the guy who supported punitive tariffs on foreign imports and the nationalisation of Britain's 25 top companies - policies which would have cut Britain off from any foreign investment, annihilated British manufacturing, led to retaliative tariffs and a world recession that would have made the social consequences of Thatcherism seem moderate by comparison. He almost destroyed the Labour Party by allying himself with Militant and Trotskyite entryists, a fact that everyone on the traditional left recognised. Like Corbyn he was a decent and principled man sure, but his ideas were totally wrong and enabled the success of Thatcher.

Then and now, the only way Labour is going to help the most vulnerable people in society is by winning the next election. Winning elections means convincing people who voted Conservative in 2010 and 2015 to vote for Labour. I supported Ed Miliband in 2010 and I rejoiced at the party moving more to the left and away from the Blairite legacy, but we've now seen the results of standing on a platform that is perceived as too left-wing and that has little to say to the majority of people in this country.

I'm from Ipswich, a seat which we needed to win and should have won, Labour's campaign was completely out-of-touch, based on fear-mongering and saying what activists wanted to hear i.e. 'Evil Tories destroying our NHS', 'Bedroom Tax' - rather than engaging with local issues and listening to people. The Conservative MP actually increased his majority substantially - which is a great shame because there is a lot of deprivation here and a lot of people will get hit by the welfare and tax credit cuts. To win in Middle England - places like Ipswich, Bedford, Nuneaton we can't rely on the same activist echo-chamber, we have to restore Labour's credibility on the economy and propose policies that will help lower middle class voters who have become increasingly convinced that the Labour Party has no relevance for them anymore. Listening to people means realising that Tories are not inherently bad people - we risk ending up as a tiny sect if many of our activists adopt a tribal, inward looking attitude.

I just don't see how Jeremy Corbyn is going to convince 2015 Tory voters to vote Labour - he is only likely to make Labour even less credible and relevant to the very voters that Labour needs to win over if it is ever going to have a chance to help the most vulnerable people in society. Now I'm not saying that Burnham, Cooper or Kendall are guaranteed to achieve victory for Labour in 2020, but we desperately need to stay relevant, make progress in re-building our support and keep the media's focus on the consequences of Tory policy and not our infighting.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #553 on: July 31, 2015, 12:17:08 PM »

Updated the CLP nominations map (for leader: will update deputy map later) but this time with the official list. You will note that there are CLPs which were listed as nominating on previous maps but not this one: this may be because they've not got round to it on the Party website (so yeah, I will revise this) but it may be because the CLP cocked up the paperwork.
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Phony Moderate
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« Reply #554 on: July 31, 2015, 12:19:43 PM »

A poll asking why Labour lost. Note which listed reason comes bottom.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/f4tu4iec6t/TimesLabourSurvey_Results_150720_W.pdf
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #555 on: July 31, 2015, 12:26:39 PM »

Anyway, official nominations from Affiliates...

Leadership Election

Trade Unions

Corbyn: ASLEF, BFAWU, UNITE, Unison, CWU, TSSA
Burnham: Musicians Union, UCATT, USDAW
Cooper: Community, NUM
Kendall: none

Socialist Societies

Corbyn: Socialist Education Association, Socialist Health Association
Cooper: Jewish Labour Movement (née Poale Zion)
Kendall: Labour Party Irish Society
Burnham: none

Most of the Societies didn't bother to nominate this time, but then they've largely lost whatever influence they had thanks to the new rules so this is not a surprise.

Deputy Leadership Election

Trade Unions

Eagle: CWU, TSSA, UCATT, Unison
Watson: ASLEF, BFAWU, NUM
Flint: Community, Musicians Union, USDAW
Bradshaw: none
Creasy: none

Socialist Societies

Creasy: Socialist Educational Association, Jewish Labour Movement
Flint: Labour Party Irish Association
Watson: Socialist Health Association
Bradshaw: none
Eagle: none
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ViaActiva
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« Reply #556 on: July 31, 2015, 12:28:00 PM »


It comes bottom because there's already more specific prompts for exactly that issue:

Highest responses from Conservative voters:

Ed Miliband was not good enough as a party leader - 57%
Labour failed to admit its mistakes in the run up to the banking crisis and recession - 40%
Labour did not have a plausible policy for reducing the government’s deficit - 37%
Labour was not tough enough on immigration and welfare spending - 33%

I'd like to hear how Jeremy Corbyn is the answer to these problems.
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ViaActiva
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« Reply #557 on: July 31, 2015, 12:40:48 PM »

On the subject of market research, here's some more:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/271940748/Listening-to-Labour-s-Lost-Labour-Voters-bbm-Research-July-2015
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« Reply #558 on: July 31, 2015, 12:44:10 PM »

Oh by the way, Dan Hodges is making some sort of 'statement' by voting for Corbyn.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #559 on: July 31, 2015, 01:09:03 PM »

Deputy map updated as well.

Is there not a property tax in the UK at the moment?

Local government is funded by a very mild property tax called Council Tax (which replaced the Poll Tax which replaced the old Rates system which was actually much better as a property tax to anyone who isn't a Tory than Council Tax). But lmao: imagine the howls of outrage from Tories at further taxation on property.
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Blair
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« Reply #560 on: July 31, 2015, 01:30:42 PM »

The Corbyn camp would hope to lead the left in the britain in a massive protest, the greens, the SNP, TUSC and all the rest would somehow float over to labour and the 40% who didn't vote will all come out for Corbyn. They see it as one last charge against austerity, and quite frankly there's a large portion who hope that it will 'purge the blairites' and reduce the labour party to a socialist party that get's 25% of the vote.
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Phony Moderate
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« Reply #561 on: July 31, 2015, 01:40:42 PM »
« Edited: July 31, 2015, 01:42:53 PM by Phony Moderate »


It comes bottom because there's already more specific prompts for exactly that issue:

Highest responses from Conservative voters:

Ed Miliband was not good enough as a party leader - 57%
Labour failed to admit its mistakes in the run up to the banking crisis and recession - 40%
Labour did not have a plausible policy for reducing the government’s deficit - 37%
Labour was not tough enough on immigration and welfare spending - 33%

I'd like to hear how Jeremy Corbyn is the answer to these problems.

I don't think Corbyn is the solution to Labour's problems, but I don't think the others are either. I happen to think that he is what politics in general needs: someone with clear ideas and principles, not someone who is in it for a ministerial car and daily interviews. Not that you have to be on the left of the party to be principled/have clear ideas: Frank Field clearly is/does for instance. Pretty much any and all policies (even absolutely abhorrent ones which contribute to World Wars) can be electorally successful, just so long as you package them efficiently and you are in touch with the electorate in putting them out there.  
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ChrisDR68
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« Reply #562 on: July 31, 2015, 01:53:15 PM »


Quite amusing at times the way it is written. Here's a snippet:


On top of all this, there was a perception that Labour had a very weak Leader. These voters didn’t see Ed Miliband as a Prime Minister. In fact, many people in the groups laughed at the prospect of him being the leader of the UK. It’s probably unhelpful to repeat all of the comments about Ed Miliband – very few were complimentary. Suffice to say that the brand of Labour has been damaged massively by these voters’ inability to perceive him as a capable and competent Prime Minister. 

Their image of Labour as a political party with a leader that was open to derision clouded all their thinking about a renewed Labour Party, and what Labour needs from its next Leader.  These voters really struggled to imagine a Labour Party with a strong, confident leader in the future.



That confirms what I've thought for a long time.

If you're in opposition you absolutely have to have a credible leader that looks and sounds like a prime minister in waiting. In this context policies are secondary (and a long way secondary at that as most voters broadly know where the Conservative and Labour Parties are coming from).

Labour didn't with Neil Kinnock and they didn't with Ed Miliband hence the unexpected defeats of 1992 and 2015.
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Leftbehind
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« Reply #563 on: July 31, 2015, 01:56:38 PM »
« Edited: July 31, 2015, 02:05:41 PM by Acting like I'm Morrissey w/o the wit »

The Corbyn camp would hope to lead the left in the britain in a massive protest, the greens, the SNP, TUSC and all the rest would somehow float over to labour and the 40% who didn't vote will all come out for Corbyn. They see it as one last charge against austerity, and quite frankly there's a large portion who hope that it will 'purge the blairites' and reduce the labour party to a socialist party that get's 25% of the vote.

The Corbyn camp are supporting a largely social democratic platform, not a million miles (domestically) away from Germany or what's seen in Scandinavia. No-one seems to have noticed that Corbyn's platform is much moderated from Benn's (which got closer to 28% - "but we can moderate and get 30%!!"), with his conditional support for the EU a sign of it.

The Blairites at this point have usually followed Blair's direction of travel since resigning and are now more or less right-wingers who are utterly hostile to any hint of socialism ("I'd rather Cameron than Miliband"; "I wouldn't stand on it even if I knew it was a vote winner", as the Progress audience claps at dat pragmatism) and the unions.  Who forget that they've no longer got the Left sown up so marching off to the new Thatcherite settlement is no longer acceptable without losing votes that way (as we seen in Scotland).
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politicus
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« Reply #564 on: July 31, 2015, 02:34:21 PM »
« Edited: August 01, 2015, 07:52:40 AM by politicus »

Yeah, Corbyn seems basically to be in line with the left wing of the Danish SD (which is small, but not considered radical) and to the right of the left wing of Icelandic SDA. I am pretty sure he would fit in nicely on the left flank of Norwegian Labour and Swedish SAP as well.

So it is a bit funny for someone this side of the North Sea that he is considered a "Socialist" (of course you can argue that all forms of Social Democracy are an expression of Democratic Socialism) and a radical.

I suppose his critical view of the UK still trying to play the great power game despite dwindling resources is controversial in a British context, whereas his view of foreign policy would be quite normal for a leftist SD in a small country.
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Gary J
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« Reply #565 on: July 31, 2015, 03:19:56 PM »

As a brief response to the discussion about land ownership in England, the legal theory which underlies the modern law is that all the land in England is owned by the crown.

The only legal interests in land, which a subject of the crown can have, is an estate. The Law of Property Act 1925 tidied up the law by permitting only two kinds of legal estate. From the first part of the text of the Act.

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The two estates are usually referred to as freehold and leasehold respectively. A freehold estate is not in legal theory ownership of the land itself, but for all practical purposes it is treated as if it were. This has been the position for more than seven hundred years.

An extract from the Wikipedia article on fee simple, summarises the historic position.

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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #566 on: July 31, 2015, 04:19:22 PM »

No-one seems to have noticed that Corbyn's platform is much moderated from Benn's...

Well other than all the people on the soft Left who are supporting him who doubtless wouldn't be were that not the case.
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Leftbehind
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« Reply #567 on: July 31, 2015, 04:22:46 PM »

Yeah, Corbyn seems basically to be in line with the left wing of the Danish SD (which is small, but not considered radical) and to the right of the left wing of Icelandic SDA. I am pretty sure he would fit in nicely on the left flank of Norwegian Labour and Swedish SDA as well.

So it is a bit funny for someone this side of the North Sea that he is considered a "Socialist" (of course you can argue that all forms of Social Democracy are an expression of Democratic Socialism) and a radical.

I suppose his critical view of the UK still trying to play the great power game despite dwindling resources is controversial in a British context, whereas his view of foreign policy would be quite normal for a leftist SD in a small country.

Interesting; I'm curious is this comparison done with Corbyn's platform in mind, or his actual views (that are much closer to Bennism, but for the sake of appeal/his campaign have been somewhat diluted).

No-one seems to have noticed that Corbyn's platform is much moderated from Benn's...

Well other than all the people on the soft Left who are supporting him who doubtless wouldn't be were that not the case.

Yeah, by no-one I mean the people I see on TV every night talking f**king sh**te.
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Phony Moderate
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« Reply #568 on: July 31, 2015, 05:18:40 PM »

Burnham gets a crucial endorsement
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Blair
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« Reply #569 on: August 01, 2015, 03:29:12 AM »

The Corbyn camp would hope to lead the left in the britain in a massive protest, the greens, the SNP, TUSC and all the rest would somehow float over to labour and the 40% who didn't vote will all come out for Corbyn. They see it as one last charge against austerity, and quite frankly there's a large portion who hope that it will 'purge the blairites' and reduce the labour party to a socialist party that get's 25% of the vote.

The Corbyn camp are supporting a largely social democratic platform, not a million miles (domestically) away from Germany or what's seen in Scandinavia. No-one seems to have noticed that Corbyn's platform is much moderated from Benn's (which got closer to 28% - "but we can moderate and get 30%!!"), with his conditional support for the EU a sign of it.

The Blairites at this point have usually followed Blair's direction of travel since resigning and are now more or less right-wingers who are utterly hostile to any hint of socialism ("I'd rather Cameron than Miliband"; "I wouldn't stand on it even if I knew it was a vote winner", as the Progress audience claps at dat pragmatism) and the unions.  Who forget that they've no longer got the Left sown up so marching off to the new Thatcherite settlement is no longer acceptable without losing votes that way (as we seen in Scotland).

The problem looking at Corbyn is that he has the most baggage because he's got links to the weird peace school of socialism. I mean sure be against Iraq that's fair but he says we should leave NATO ideally, that Northern Ireland should be part of Ireland and that all military force is wrong. I mean this is the battles that Labour had in the 1950's.
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Zanas
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« Reply #570 on: August 01, 2015, 04:04:23 AM »

The problem looking at Corbyn is that he has the most baggage because he's got links to the weird peace school of socialism. I mean sure be against Iraq that's fair but he says we should leave NATO ideally, that Northern Ireland should be part of Ireland and that all military force is wrong. I mean this is the battles that Labour had in the 1950's.
I don't see anything wrong with those statements, and surely quite a number of Labour supporters do not either, or he would not be the front-runner in this.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #571 on: August 01, 2015, 05:25:48 AM »

Labour supporters may not see anything wrong with them, but a lot of the country does; Labour ran on a unilateralist stance in the 1950s and lost two general elections, one in a landslide.
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Phony Moderate
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« Reply #572 on: August 01, 2015, 05:44:04 AM »
« Edited: August 01, 2015, 05:58:29 AM by Phony Moderate »

Labour supporters may not see anything wrong with them, but a lot of the country does; Labour ran on a unilateralist stance in the 1950s and lost two general elections, one in a landslide.

I'm not fond of the idea of changing positions purely for electoral gain. If one sincerely believes in UND then one should attempt to convince others (be they in the party or in the country) of its merits; same goes for those who are anti-UND.
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Blair
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« Reply #573 on: August 01, 2015, 05:56:09 AM »

The problem looking at Corbyn is that he has the most baggage because he's got links to the weird peace school of socialism. I mean sure be against Iraq that's fair but he says we should leave NATO ideally, that Northern Ireland should be part of Ireland and that all military force is wrong. I mean this is the battles that Labour had in the 1950's.
I don't see anything wrong with those statements, and surely quite a number of Labour supporters do not either, or he would not be the front-runner in this.

It's not got much press, apart from a New Statesman article.

The problem is that this leadership debate is not really about policy, it's about how/what we want the party to be. If Corbyn is going to be beaten it's by saying that he's got a history of stupid positions. I mean Labour before Blair always at least pretended to be slight pro-military, I know the cold war was a different time but we still need to pretend that we can stand up for national interests
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Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese
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« Reply #574 on: August 01, 2015, 07:47:22 AM »


What is SDA? The Social Democrats is shortened either simply as S or SAP, SDA sounds like it would be a radical wing of the Sweden Democrats. Wink
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