Labour Party leadership election 2015

[Blair]

Personally, I don't know what's worse for the party; Corbyn winning or Corbyn losing.

Corbyn winning would at least make politics extremely interesting for Labour, as it tries to work out just what to do. I've heard from someone in the party that David Miliband is making open noises about trying to find a safe seat he can parachute into

[Blair]

Let's hope the tories don't see this

I always thought he just wanted to talk to Hamas, but calling them a force for 'social justice' takes it a bit too far in my view

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I think I've become freakishly optimistic. I'm hoping Corbyn can utilise his support to help the party as a whole, while the leadership is given to a soft left pair of hands.

It's worth noting that the driving issues behind previous bouts of really vicious factionalism in Labour have invariably been over foreign and defence policy. Debates about other things have generally been less toxic even when there have been sharp differences (and sometimes when they haven't been it was - partly - because they were linked to those more contentious issues: this was the case with the rows over Clause IV in the early 1960s).* So... to strike a cautiously - and quite possibly probably unduly, who knows - optimistic note, I would draw attention to the fact that Corbyn is not running on his (very very left-wing) stances on foreign and defence policy and has even tried to play them down at times during the campaign. And this is the case with the wider (newly energised) Labour Left as well, particularly at the younger end of it. Which might (maybe, hopefully, God willing) mean that any oncoming factional brutality - because there's going to be at least a little bit no matter what happens - is less extensive than has been the case in the past.

_{*And also, bluntly, most ordinary Labour Moderates have not historically been/are not now exactly what you'd call centrist on social policy or economics... even the opposition to widespread nationalisation which spread out from the PLP into the Right elements of the CLPs was a matter of practical politics.}

I know finding faux global trends is the mark of a true pseudo intellectual, but it is interesting to compare similar movements made by the Sanders campaign and even Syriza/Podemos. The modern left seems to eschew foreign policy entirely. Odd.

It seems that much of the Trad Right are greater fans of central planning than the soft left. Is the Trad Right just a group of people who love unions and nuclea bombs?

[Famous Mortimer]

Let's hope the tories don't see this

I always thought he just wanted to talk to Hamas, but calling them a force for 'social justice' takes it a bit too far in my view

Damn, that's f***** crazy.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

...whilst the membership has become more left wing due to Ed pushing the party to the left and also labour becoming the opposition.

Well it's a bit more complicated than that: what happened in the early 1970s (i.e. sudden growth of the Left as a result of a Conservative government presiding over - imposing some (and that certainly includes these people) would argue - attacks on living standards) is pretty clearly happening again. I did wonder (back in 2010) whether it might do, but had started to assume that the answer was negative as it didn't seem to be happening: apparently the key word is sudden.

Important note for everyone: ballot papers aren't sent out until the middle of the month and voting continues well into September. In certain respects the contest is only just beginning.

[Famous Mortimer]

I think I've become freakishly optimistic. I'm hoping Corbyn can utilise his support to help the party as a whole, while the leadership is given to a soft left pair of hands.

It's worth noting that the driving issues behind previous bouts of really vicious factionalism in Labour have invariably been over foreign and defence policy. Debates about other things have generally been less toxic even when there have been sharp differences (and sometimes when they haven't been it was - partly - because they were linked to those more contentious issues: this was the case with the rows over Clause IV in the early 1960s).* So... to strike a cautiously - and quite possibly probably unduly, who knows - optimistic note, I would draw attention to the fact that Corbyn is not running on his (very very left-wing) stances on foreign and defence policy and has even tried to play them down at times during the campaign. And this is the case with the wider (newly energised) Labour Left as well, particularly at the younger end of it. Which might (maybe, hopefully, God willing) mean that any oncoming factional brutality - because there's going to be at least a little bit no matter what happens - is less extensive than has been the case in the past.

_{*And also, bluntly, most ordinary Labour Moderates have not historically been/are not now exactly what you'd call centrist on social policy or economics... even the opposition to widespread nationalisation which spread out from the PLP into the Right elements of the CLPs was a matter of practical politics.}

I know finding faux global trends is the mark of a true pseudo intellectual, but it is interesting to compare similar movements made by the Sanders campaign and even Syriza/Podemos. The modern left seems to eschew foreign policy entirely. Odd.

It seems that much of the Trad Right are greater fans of central planning than the soft left. Is the Trad Right just a group of people who love unions and nuclea bombs?

Sanders is actually way to the right of Corbyn. For one, as we recently learned, Sanders is far less supportive of immigration. He also has a much more mainstream view of military issues, having backed intervention in Kosovo, hypothetical intervention in Rwanda, and supported the initial invasion of Afghanistan. Also, guns.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I think I've become freakishly optimistic. I'm hoping Corbyn can utilise his support to help the party as a whole, while the leadership is given to a soft left pair of hands.

If he wins (and it is still very much an 'if') then maybe that is how it will be. Against that it can be noted that Corbyn has no experience of political responsibility or of dealing with political pressure. On the bright side, that means that if he were to self-destruct messily as Leader it would happen long before the General Election.

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I would like to resent that charge, but it isn't an entirely unfair characterisation in some cases. But generally its more a matter of believing very strongly that pragmatism is important.

[Simfan34]

Question for you all: do you still think nationalising "the commanding heights of industry" was a good idea in retrospect?

[Phony Moderate]

Let's hope the tories don't see this

I always thought he just wanted to talk to Hamas, but calling them a force for 'social justice' takes it a bit too far in my view

Though he actually tells a half-joke at one point in the video; one of the criticisms so far has been that he is humourless.

[warandwar]

Let's hope the tories don't see this

I always thought he just wanted to talk to Hamas, but calling them a force for 'social justice' takes it a bit too far in my view

Though he actually tells a half-joke at one point in the video; one of the criticisms so far has been that he is humourless.

Not sure if he's calling Hamas itself a force for social justice or the group of parlimentarians present instead.

[Famous Mortimer]

Let's hope the tories don't see this

I always thought he just wanted to talk to Hamas, but calling them a force for 'social justice' takes it a bit too far in my view

Though he actually tells a half-joke at one point in the video; one of the criticisms so far has been that he is humourless.

Not sure if he's calling Hamas itself a force for social justice or the group of parlimentarians present instead.

Haha. Justify much?

[ChrisDR68]

Question for you all: do you still think nationalising "the commanding heights of industry" was a good idea in retrospect?

There's a case for the railways and utilities being in the public sector but by the late 1970's there was a lot more of the British economy that was nationalised. A lot of it was very badly run (British Leyland, British Steel, British Telecom, Sealink) and lost a lot taxpayers money year after year.

It's worth noting that when most of these things were privatised in the 1980's they weren't terribly missed by the public and the quality of service the newly privatised companies provided was superior.

A couple (British Gas and British Petroleum) were profitable so would probably have been better staying in the public sector.

[Blair]

As my MP noted the problem with nationalization is that the tories would instantly undo a lot of good work, I know it's a weak case but if Blair/Brown did take the railway into public hands (Something IMO they should have done in 1997) then the tories would have most likely sold it off in 2010 at a cut price (As they've done with royal mail)   

[DavidB.]

Let's hope the tories don't see this

I always thought he just wanted to talk to Hamas, but calling them a force for 'social justice' takes it a bit too far in my view

Sickening. This guy is officially nuts.

[Blair]

Let's hope the tories don't see this

I always thought he just wanted to talk to Hamas, but calling them a force for 'social justice' takes it a bit too far in my view

Sickening. This guy is officially nuts.

As I've said like 10 times Corbyn's problem imo isn't his economic views but rather his history of saying rather controversial views. Plus the fact that he's rebelled about 100 times and supported George Galloway when he beat a labour MP (Galloway is the definition of scum)

[Silent Hunter]

If I disobeyed orders as often as Corbyn has, I'd be out of a job.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Neil Kinnock has endorsed Burnham.

[politicus]

Neil Kinnock has endorsed Burnham.

Logical. How is his status among the members today?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Neil Kinnock has endorsed Burnham.

Logical. How is his status among the members today?

Respected Party elder.

[Blair]

Despite being silly season the race seems to be hotting up. The 3 moderates seem to be trying to zero in on Corbyn with Shadow Chancellor Leslie writing a rather good piece about how Corbyn's whole economic policy is based on printing money for investment on the principle that we did it in 2009, and muh deflation.

Burnham appears to be trying to fight back, he got Kinnock's endorsement along with Abby, and the release of his manifesto this week. He most likely is trying to get that 20% who haven't worked out who to vote for yet. I've seen some claim that Corbyn is facing an establishment coup re Scottish referendum

[warandwar]

If I disobeyed orders as often as Corbyn has, I'd be out of a job.

So? Why does that matter in this context?

[Famous Mortimer]

Neil Kinnock has endorsed Burnham.

Any word on his son? I remember be nominated(endorsed?) that nobody chick who dropped out after not enough people nominated her.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Any word on his son? I remember be nominated(endorsed?) that nobody chick who dropped out after not enough people nominated her.

He's backing Cooper. He's at least a couple of notches to the right of his dad, of course.

[warandwar]

Let's hope the tories don't see this

I always thought he just wanted to talk to Hamas, but calling them a force for 'social justice' takes it a bit too far in my view

Though he actually tells a half-joke at one point in the video; one of the criticisms so far has been that he is humourless.

Not sure if he's calling Hamas itself a force for social justice or the group of parlimentarians present instead.

Haha. Justify much?

The group of parlimentarians present weren't part of Hamas, according to the video.

Besides I don't think it's entirely inaccurate to call Hezbollah a force for social justice, in that, as an organization, it exists to empower Lebanese Shiites. I think in this context it's important to distinguish the military and political wings of the two organizations.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I'm sure that explaining such matters to bemused voters on the doorstep will be great fun.