Labour Party leadership election 2015
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Author Topic: Labour Party leadership election 2015  (Read 138752 times)
Phony Moderate
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« Reply #900 on: August 19, 2015, 10:40:29 AM »

The New Statesman has endorsed Cooper (what a sensible lot Smiley):

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/ns-leader-choice-labour

If Labour don't take this opportunity to elect it's first woman leader Lord alone knows when they ever will Shocked



When there is a woman worth voting for, probably. Creasy has potential.
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Phony Moderate
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« Reply #901 on: August 19, 2015, 10:42:50 AM »

There is reason to believe that another YouGov poll is in the works; if it shows a similar story to the previous one then that is probably that.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #902 on: August 19, 2015, 11:48:52 AM »

Oh dear.

FWIW, the Jewish Labour Movement endorsed Cooper.
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Blair
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« Reply #903 on: August 19, 2015, 12:11:36 PM »

Burnham is more of a curiosity than that; he has significant strengths as well as weaknesses, but for whatever reason the leadership campaign has mostly brought out the latter (and this will be a fair comment even if he wins). Mind you, that's a fairly common curiosity in the Labour Party: he is nowhere near as extreme as case as Denis Healey.

An interesting thing to note about Jarvis - I've mentioned it before but its worth repeating - is that while he's associated with the Right (and is not even hostile to Progress) he often sounds very left wing when talking about social policy and some economic matters.

He had a very good start-getting the endorsement of the most MP's, and several big players like Jarvis, Reeves, Kinnock and Prescott. As someone who voted for him, and still supports him the charge that he 'flip flops' has managed to catch on-unfairly in some cases and fairly in others.

It's interesting how someone who as a 'darling' of the party last year has managed to struggle-a large part of it is the NHS not being an issue at all in this election, that was always Andy's trump card
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Phony Moderate
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« Reply #904 on: August 19, 2015, 12:29:16 PM »


Still, George Brown was Deputy for a decade, and Alec Douglas-Home was PM.
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tpfkaw
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« Reply #905 on: August 19, 2015, 02:20:09 PM »
« Edited: August 19, 2015, 02:21:41 PM by tpfkaw »


Oh, and Corbyn hosted him in Parliament, along with one of Hezbollah's leaders, in 2009.

The popcorn is rather tasty.
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Phony Moderate
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« Reply #906 on: August 19, 2015, 02:34:55 PM »

Stephen Bush of The New Statesman just linked to this week-old article of his.

Still want to see this next YouGov poll though (assuming it will be publically released).
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tpfkaw
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« Reply #907 on: August 19, 2015, 03:03:04 PM »

Anyway, M&C Saatchi are going to have their jobs made very easy this time around, what with a guy who's been kind enough to write their material for them.  Like, they could just shove off a run featuring the text of the speech where he demands Parliament observe a minute's silence for IRA terrorists.

And the campaign lines write themselves too:

Quote
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Best thing about that one is that it's not even hyperbole!

I'm certain the four-and-a-half-million doorstep conversations about what a fab idea it is to give the Falklands to the Argies are going to go spectacularly.

And we're not even getting into all the stuff around the people he'd put in his shadow cabinet...

Point is, speaking as someone who enjoys your politics for the entertainment value, it's gonna be hilarious when you guys are voting Tory to keep the Kippers out.
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ViaActiva
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« Reply #908 on: August 19, 2015, 05:56:03 PM »

Agreed that it's going to be a complete bloodbath when he's elected. The Conservative press are going to rip him to shreds every week. Listening to him on World at One, it's clear that he has a thin skin and is easily rattled, so expect some memorable car crash interviews. Every policy he tries to announce will be immediately denounced by all the grandees of the Labour Right (Chuka Umunna and Tristram Hunt have already formed a splinter group). The Left will become defensive and paranoid, and the Party will collapse further into in-fighting. Given Corbyn's evident lack of passion for holding the position of leader, I wouldn't be surprised if he resigns after a few months, leading to another contest. The Left will cry betrayal and they'll probably be mass defections to the Greens.
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Phony Moderate
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« Reply #909 on: August 19, 2015, 06:15:51 PM »
« Edited: August 19, 2015, 06:56:43 PM by Phony Moderate »

I'm not sure that people elected in 2010 deserve the label of 'grandee'. Anyhow, I predict that Corbyn won't win; mostly because the idea that I'm on the winning side of anything always digusts me.
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SPQR
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« Reply #910 on: August 20, 2015, 03:50:04 AM »

I am just starting to look into the non-Corbyn candidates.
Burnham seems a decent politician (and man),also with all the Hillsborough stuff. What are his more obvious weaknesses?
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Phony Moderate
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« Reply #911 on: August 20, 2015, 03:50:07 AM »

Deary me.
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Blair
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« Reply #912 on: August 20, 2015, 04:12:02 AM »

I am just starting to look into the non-Corbyn candidates.
Burnham seems a decent politician (and man),also with all the Hillsborough stuff. What are his more obvious weaknesses?

From a strict tory press office point of his view it's that he was Health Secretary when there was an 'alleged' cover up of hospital deaths-it's a complete smear but it appears to have traction.

On personality he's seen as being indecisive and not being consistent-he was an arch blairite in 2010, but tacked left afterwards   
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Zanas
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« Reply #913 on: August 20, 2015, 07:28:00 AM »

Ohnoes! If we elect somebody vaguely left-wing and willing to believe in a few things and change a few things, the evil right-wing media and politicians will destroy him in the media and in politics! Let's rather elect somebody who doesn't stand for any change at all so we can win the election and... do what exactly?

At some point you gotta ask yourselves: what's Labour for ?
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ViaActiva
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« Reply #914 on: August 20, 2015, 08:15:00 AM »

Ohnoes! If we elect somebody vaguely left-wing and willing to believe in a few things and change a few things, the evil right-wing media and politicians will destroy him in the media and in politics!




Ohnoes! If we elect somebody vaguely left-wing and willing to believe in a few things and change a few things, the evil right-wing media and politicians will destroy him in the media and in politics! Let's rather elect somebody who doesn't stand for any change at all so we can win the election and... do what exactly?

At some point you gotta ask yourselves: what's Labour for ?

See, there were a lot of people who took that attitude from 1979-1997, but what did Labour do in government after 1997? Rough sleeping cut by two thirds, doubling international aid, the Minimum Wage, massive improvements in health and education, tax credits, winter fuel payments, a revolution in childcare with SureStart, a significant fall in crime, House of Lords reform (albeit limited), repeal of Section 28, the introduction of civil partnerships... we could go on and on. Now I'm pretty critical of a lot of New Labour (Blair's catastrophic foreign policy, his presidentialism, a lot of the anti-terror legislation, the disdain for the grassroots of the party) but to say that Labour cannot achieve anything by compromising with mainstream opinion in the country is nonsense and will consign the party to complete irrelevance.

Corbyn has beliefs, right, but they're nuts. Nationalising the energy companies? Raising money through a tax gap of which one sixth is actually collectable? This isn't real change that people can seriously believe in, it's blind hope. It will lead to even more disillusionment with politics when people realise that Labour is completely impotent and untrustworthy and that the Tories are effectively a one party state.

Now of course the other candidates have had terrible campaigns, but at least they're beginning to advocate some ideas that actually make sense: universal free childcare, investment in science and manufacturing, the integration of social care, devolution of power. It's clear that there is a vacuum of ideas and an inspiring programme of government within the party at the moment, but we can at least elect a leader who is passionate about building on a winning programme and not assuming the position because of some vague belief in 'broadening the debate' within the party.
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Phony Moderate
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« Reply #915 on: August 20, 2015, 08:35:29 AM »
« Edited: August 20, 2015, 08:37:43 AM by Phony Moderate »

What do you define as 'mainstream' opinion though? A majority of the public, rightly or wrongly, support renationalization of the utilities - Link Once put under scrutiny support may or may not fall, but surely that would make that position (which of course Corbyn holds) mainstream? Or are you defining 'mainstream opinion' in the context of Westminster and the media?
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Zanas
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« Reply #916 on: August 20, 2015, 08:58:27 AM »

My point was, a Labour leader ought to be attacked by the right-wing media and politicians who serve the "plutocracy/oligarchy (pick one)", that's who he is supposed to be fighting. More worrying is when such a leader isn't attacked by those guys... But I guess I'm having blind hopes. Is anybody wanting to increase the power of the weak a little and decrease the power of the big guys a little having blind hopes ? Then I suppose we just need to jump off a cliff.

Oh and I don't think Ed Miliband ever qualified as having a genuine sincere left-wing stance on anything, but maybe that's just me.
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Phony Moderate
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« Reply #917 on: August 20, 2015, 09:02:13 AM »

Miliband was/is firmly centre-left on the spectrum of British politics.
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Blair
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« Reply #918 on: August 20, 2015, 09:23:29 AM »

Got some thoughts about the race, and they are probably the exact opposite of what I've said before.

1-Corbyn is the only one proposing policy-this is a complete myth, and something I saw during the General election. Kendall has proposed raising inheritance tax... Burnham opposed academies, a UCAS for apprenticeships, a separate EU campaigning group, rail nationalisation... Cooper has had universal childcare. I'd argue it's more that Corbyn is proposing left wing policies, and these are the only policies that many people want

2-Corbyn is bad because he's un-electable  - He's bad because he's proposing some absolutely awful policies that we'd heavily attack the tories for- leaving NATO, supporting a United Ireland, calling for a 'party of peace', associating  with anti Semites and that's just his foreign policy.

3-Corbyn is just proposing a moderate centre left policy-again see above, these policies haven't been part of mainstream labour opinion since the 1930's (IIRC even Foot was an establishment left winger in the mould of Miliband)  Printing money to invest in infrastructure, re-opening the coal mines and becoming a party of peace isn't credible. The argument that's it's popular is true, however I'd point to the fact that for the last 20 years the Death Penalty was popular-also people don't vote on single issues it's all part of a package. If you present a package with massive tack hikes on middle england people won't support it because they said they like rail nationalization-it's like saying that gay voters will vote Tory because of gay marriage

As a member of the 'Milifandon' Miliband had a clear left wing stance, and this revisionist claptrap that we didn't offer enough in 2015 has already started-I've seen the mantra that Miliband was held back by the Blairites but let's look at what we were offering- An elected House of Lords, increased Bank Levy,  regional investment banks, 50p tax rate, mansion tax, getting rid of non doms, a joined up health and social care, cutting tuition fees to 6,000 and so on. It was actually quite a big package of reform
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ChrisDR68
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« Reply #919 on: August 20, 2015, 10:55:29 AM »

As a member of the 'Milifandon' Miliband had a clear left wing stance, and this revisionist claptrap that we didn't offer enough in 2015 has already started-I've seen the mantra that Miliband was held back by the Blairites but let's look at what we were offering- An elected House of Lords, increased Bank Levy,  regional investment banks, 50p tax rate, mansion tax, getting rid of non doms, a joined up health and social care, cutting tuition fees to 6,000 and so on. It was actually quite a big package of reform

I don't think Ed lost because of the policies he was advocating, he lost because he was personally unpopular and was seen by the public as the "wrong brother".
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Oakvale
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« Reply #920 on: August 20, 2015, 10:57:17 AM »

As a member of the 'Milifandon' Miliband had a clear left wing stance, and this revisionist claptrap that we didn't offer enough in 2015 has already started-I've seen the mantra that Miliband was held back by the Blairites but let's look at what we were offering- An elected House of Lords, increased Bank Levy,  regional investment banks, 50p tax rate, mansion tax, getting rid of non doms, a joined up health and social care, cutting tuition fees to 6,000 and so on. It was actually quite a big package of reform

The thing is the Left choose to believe otherwise because it means they don't have to sully themselves by winning over people who voted for other parties - they can just ~expand the electorate~ on a left-wing platform and win comfortably. Note an outright Trot maniac like Zanas above saying Miliband was some kind of Tory sellout.

Excellent point on the gap between policies people will support in opinion polls and actually voting for the party proposing them. The death penalty comparison is one I've made many times.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #921 on: August 20, 2015, 11:16:18 AM »

The discussion between Sigmund and ViaActiva is basically the debate between a socialist and a social democrat.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #922 on: August 20, 2015, 11:26:21 AM »

The desire of the far left to commit electoral suicide is always an amusing spectacle.

Corbyn strikes me as completely unelectable. There is a subtle line between electable centre-left and loony far left which is not always easy to spot. It is what in a PR system divides the marginal Communist/Ex-Communist voter from the marginal Social Democrat voter. With the special exception of Syriza (and maybe something else that I forget) the former type of party simply does not win elections in the Western world. And I feel Corbyn really falls on the wrong side of that line.
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« Reply #923 on: August 20, 2015, 11:42:39 AM »

I am just starting to look into the non-Corbyn candidates.
Burnham seems a decent politician (and man),also with all the Hillsborough stuff. What are his more obvious weaknesses?

From a strict tory press office point of his view it's that he was Health Secretary when there was an 'alleged' cover up of hospital deaths-it's a complete smear but it appears to have traction.

On personality he's seen as being indecisive and not being consistent-he was an arch blairite in 2010, but tacked left afterwards   
Thanks.
Could be worse,I guess.


Anyway it's nice to see how the complete hatred/fear that the "far" left has of actually governing is a common trait across all countries...
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #924 on: August 20, 2015, 11:57:27 AM »

With the special exception of Syriza (and maybe something else that I forget) the former type of party simply does not win elections in the Western world. And I feel Corbyn really falls on the wrong side of that line.

And it certainly does not win them under FPTP.
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