What should Labour do to win back Scotland?
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  What should Labour do to win back Scotland?
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Author Topic: What should Labour do to win back Scotland?  (Read 5689 times)
Sol
Junior Chimp
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« on: May 08, 2015, 09:05:04 PM »
« edited: May 10, 2015, 07:41:46 AM by Peter »

Well?
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Ebsy
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2015, 09:06:40 PM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:41:57 AM by Peter »

Launch an invasion from Tasmania.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2015, 09:07:36 PM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:42:03 AM by Peter »

Merge with the SNP in an independent Scotland.
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2015, 09:32:03 PM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:42:10 AM by Peter »

I don't think this is a permanent setback for Labour in Scotland. I think within the next couple of elections the SNP will likely be whittled down because the SNP was a protest vote. If Labour selects someone more electable and the independence issue dies out, the SNP will lose their momentum.
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ag
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2015, 09:53:14 PM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:42:17 AM by Peter »

Merge with LD and Conservatives into the Scottish Unionist Party. Or, at least, agree with the other two to run only one Unionist candidate in each constituency.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2015, 11:05:04 PM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:42:23 AM by Peter »

Merge with LD and Conservatives into the Scottish Unionist Party. Or, at least, agree with the other two to run only one Unionist candidate in each constituency.

No, no, no, unless you want SNP to reach 60% next election.
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2015, 01:48:31 AM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:42:30 AM by Peter »

Merge with LD and Conservatives into the Scottish Unionist Party. Or, at least, agree with the other two to run only one Unionist candidate in each constituency.

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jfern
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2015, 02:32:31 AM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:42:36 AM by Peter »

Invent a time machine and kill Tony Blair before he got anywhere near Prime Minister.
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Beet
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2015, 02:57:09 AM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:42:44 AM by Peter »

Hold off against independence somehow, and wait for the SNP to totally screw up, which they will at some point, and then set themselves up as the alternative. Unfortunately, having rejected Labour for the SNP, voters are not likely to want to go back. Parties and movements we have not even heard of may emerge.
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Mechaman
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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2015, 06:19:17 AM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:42:58 AM by Peter »

Become a Left Wing party.  Seriously, at this point I really don't get what the big difference is between Labour and SNP anyway.  I mean yes I can understand some of the gripes from the left on here if Labour had been a strong defender of left wing principles during the past two decades.  Instead their appeal to the Scots had largely been something along the lines of "hey at least we are not Thatcher!"

So yes, the last thing you folks need to do is to continue treating the Scots like weathervane hicks who vote the way the wind changes.  Instead Labour needs to take an active involvement in their concerns and just drop the whole anti-independence position.  Oh no, you guys don't need to be pro-independence, in fact I would just leave that up to the discretion of individual members.  As it is I believe that Independence is inevitable and it will happen but until that time comes it would really help Labour's positioning among the Scots to actually listen to their concerns and act on it instead of sit in a corner and say "SNP wants a petrostate blah blah blah blah blah blah".  Sitting in a corner and waiting for people to tire of SNP is not a good strategy, it is bullshit!

Face it folks, Brittania will fall again.

Let me put it this way: When Scottish Independence does happen (which it will), wouldn't it be nice to have a left wing counterbalance to the inevitable nationalistic right wing government that would emerge instead of being the party that was known largely for saying "fuck you assholes" in regards to it the whole time?  Or have you guys really learned nothing from the Irish Free State?

I mean damn seriously folks, I am amazed at the stupidity sometimes.

/rant over
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change08
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2015, 06:26:41 AM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:43:04 AM by Peter »

Invent a time machine and kill Tony Blair before he got anywhere near Prime Minister.

The guy who won 3 landslides in Scotland?
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Torie
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2015, 07:21:33 AM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:43:11 AM by Peter »

Mechaman's "rant" has a kernel of truth in it perhaps about Labour maybe losing its enthusiasm for opposing Scottish independence to the extent they think their days of bountiful harvests of Labour held seats in Parliament are over, particularly if the whole issue is seen as costing them seats in England. Scotland was its worst nightmare in this last election.
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Mechaman
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2015, 10:02:02 AM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:43:18 AM by Peter »

Mechaman's "rant" has a kernel of truth in it perhaps about Labour maybe losing its enthusiasm for opposing Scottish independence to the extent they think their days of bountiful harvests of Labour held seats in Parliament are over, particularly if the whole issue is seen as costing them seats in England. Scotland was its worst nightmare in this last election.

Yes.

While the Referendum did fail last year many missed that it only failed by ten points.  And Labour was one of the parties that seemed to be the most adamant that Scotland stay in the UK.  It is quite incredible how deadset many "left wingers" seem to be against the coming tide of history and the fall of Brittania simply because the loudest voice in favor of said fall happens to be a party advocating a petrostate.  It seems to me that the question was hardly ever raised "well hey what if we propose a viable left wing alternative to these big oil fiends?"  Instead what we got was a bunch of hoopla about how the UK and Scotland "need" each other or what not and about how going away would break the UK's heart.  And despite all of that cheery feel goody "I WISH I COULD QUIT YOU GEORDIE!" talk the Scots still voted 45% for independence from a nation that according to every Labour supporter on this site insists has always been good to them and has represented their interests and never gave them any reason to oppose the union.

If that was so the truth, the question of the 45% needs to be asked rather than pulling a Mitt Romneyesque put down about them.  Labour effectively made the Referendum voters their own "45 percent".  It is fuckin' inevitable you goddamn motherfuckers, whether you fucking like it or not!  There is no amount of self-deception, lazy man talking points (but but but muh oil state!), or half ass rationalization (it's okay if we continue to oppose history because the dumb sheeple will eventually come around like they always have!) you can come up with out of your asses.  The Scottish people don't owe you shit, and the election results last night very well shows that in action.

You know what?  Maybe the Scots are a bunch of entitled bastards.  So what?  If you have a hope in hell of being anywhere close to the numbers you had up there in the beginning of the last decade you will realize that you are fighting a losing battle instead of put your heads further in the bullshit and actually prepare for the future.  And you know what Scotland will need in the future?  It will need a goddamn strong left wing party to defend their interests and also fight for the needs of working class English, Welsh, and Northern Irish communities.  Make the British left once more about representing working class interests and not about defending some outdated view on "Muh nationalism" because you are too lazy to change your campaign and believe that working people should just be expected to vote for you because your name is "Labour".

The world is much bigger than the existence of the United Kingdom and you can't claim to be a true left winger if you are deadset against the possibility of a future independent Scotland as it stands.  It is time that Labour prepares to exist in an Independent Scotland just as much as they focus on their general UK platform.  Otherwise, I really do not see how they can come back from this.  And I am not basing this off of my own biases, though I do admit that I do have strong biases on this matter.  Comparisons to American states do not work here, as there has not been any statewide referendums of the magnitude of what happened last year.  The people may at times be fickle idiots, but the results in recent history have been very consistent.  You would be a fool to ignore them.
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Torie
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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2015, 10:24:40 AM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:44:02 AM by Peter »

Labour had a huge political incentive to try to keep Scotland in the UK because of all the seats they held there, particularly relative to their arch rivals, the Tories. But that incentive appears to be gone now, so thus the posited course correction, once Labour realizes the clock cannot be turned back, to the extent that is true. Cameron and the Tories meanwhile have a huge incentive to get them out, but can't be seen as pushing them out. So it is in his interest to try to be seen as trying to reach a compromise, so that when the SNP demands more, it would be perceived when it all falls apart, that the breakup is despite his best good faith efforts, and due to the unreasonable demands of the SNP. So the SNP and the Tories have a common agenda really, but cannot be seen as having such. It's all very interesting to see how this kabuki performance plays out.

The polls meanwhile are crystal clear the the English don't want to spend a dime trying to bribe Scotland to stay in, with some willing to pay a bribe to get them out.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2015, 10:31:42 AM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:44:08 AM by Peter »

More heat than light indeed.

---

Well there isn't a lot that Labour as a Britain-wide entity can do because Scottish elections are entirely Scottish affairs. Establishing Scottish Labour as an independent entity couldn't do any harm though.

I think what needs to be understood is that the Scottish Labour Party is (and has been for a long time) both an organisational and ideological disaster. Organisationally because, well, everything you have heard is actually true; in particular I would note that most Scottish CLPs are indeed practically paper organisations.* The fact that this has remained true despite mounting evidence (going back decades) that the Scottish electorate is infinitely more volatile than that of the rest of the United Kingdom is an act of egregious collective incompetence. Scottish Labour has been a bit of a potemkin party for decades; the tendency has been to get round this via strong personalities. Currently there are none left. Not only that, but the senior figures of today seem to be political idiots; Scottish Labour has proven to be an unbelievably incompetent opposition party since 2007, with an unparalleled ability to turn open goals into own goals. Ideologically because although there is a good socialist case for maintaining the union, the party has proven almost entirely unable to articulate it (Gordon Brown can, oddly enough, but he's retired) and has often been more concerned with petty factional disputes than engaging with the electorate (the recent leadership election - a factional bunfight and nothing more - was a depressing case in point). The electoral consequences of this have been devastating.

So, basically, Scottish Labour needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt. Some had been arguing for this anyway, but I think it is quite clear there is really no alternative now.

*This is not, despite claims to the contrary, actually true of CLPs in other parts of Britain.
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Hnv1
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« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2015, 12:47:15 PM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:44:14 AM by Peter »

Whip Scottish Labour into shape. Offer a new constitutional deal to Scotland (and NI\Wales\regions). Elect a leader who is appealing to both white working class in England and the average scot instead of metropolitan slicks. Apologize for their conduct during the referendum.
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« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2015, 01:36:15 PM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:44:21 AM by Peter »

Scottish Labour should become an SDLP like sister party to the English and Welsh party
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2015, 01:45:17 PM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:44:27 AM by Peter »

Scotland is not part of Atlasia.
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jfern
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« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2015, 07:58:33 PM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:45:02 AM by Peter »

Invent a time machine and kill Tony Blair before he got anywhere near Prime Minister.

The guy who won 3 landslides in Scotland?

We're talking about 2015. I don't think SNP voters are too impressed with Tony Blair's 3rd-way warmongering. The SNP is the non warmongering social democratic party that the Labour party should have been.
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« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2015, 01:17:40 AM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:45:09 AM by Peter »

No one is voting based on the Iraq War in 2015.
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ag
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« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2015, 01:21:09 AM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:45:17 AM by Peter »


Well, may be, there are 5 invalids, who do. Fhough, probably, 2 of them vote Con.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2015, 06:33:16 AM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:45:23 AM by Peter »

Realise that there is no point winning 40 seats in Scotland if it costs you 100 in England.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2015, 07:17:22 AM »
« Edited: May 10, 2015, 07:45:29 AM by Peter »

Not that it will be simple... despite how I present it.

A lot of it will come down to how the Scottish Government handles whatever concessions might be extended to them after the SNP tsunami. A lot of people who voted SNP were not necessarily voting purely on the issue of Scottish Independence - but thinking Labour had let them down and only the SNP could send a message against austerity to Westminster. But, to me, it seemed that the polling figures for the SNP got stronger as the idea of a Labour minority Government became more likely, so voting SNP was not necessarily going to harm the goal of removing the Tories.

Wow... that was a stream of consciousness.

But what does Labour have to do?

1. Knock-down and rebuild - acknowledge the lack of faith shown and build a network of strong local talent.
2. Wait - Labour's position is very much based on how the SNP do locally - if the SNP do well, there's one path - but if the SNP are unable to capitalise and maintain this support (especially since the SNP have no real power in the face of a majority government) then Labour will be a natural home for most of these voters.
3. Don't f*** around with the Independence issue - be clear that Labour supports maintaining the Union and WHY, but recognising the need for greater local autonomy, so that means either supporting new powers that may be granted or advocate for them to be granted.
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Peter
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« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2015, 07:44:45 AM »

Thanks - I've gone through and corrected every subject line!
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2015, 08:02:35 AM »

I think Labour is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The vagaries of FPTP have turned against them. Instead of having 40+ safe lefty seats in Scotland that they could take for granted, allowing them to cling to the middle in England, they now have 40 lost seats that want strong leftist MP's. If Labour tacks left, they risk losing even more English seats to the Tories & Lib Dems. If they ignore Scotland altogether and try to make up the seats in England, they basically become the Canadian Liberals Tongue
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