Alleviating Rural Poverty Act of 2015
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Author Topic: Alleviating Rural Poverty Act of 2015  (Read 3989 times)
windjammer
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« on: May 14, 2015, 12:38:19 PM »

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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2015, 03:52:35 PM »

I have to say, I am extremely skeptical of rural bus service. If it worked, it would already exist. The population density in rural areas makes it almost impossible to establish an effective public transportation scheme. Inter-city transportation between semi-rural hubs is more feasible, but in that case I think we'd have to set some clearer definitions.

But if you're talking about sending a city bus down Country Road #18 for 40 miles, I'm going to have to object. In that case, it would be better to use this money to subsidize the purchase of cars or fuel. And that's certainly not ideal either from a number of perspectives.

All that aside, I'm certainly okay with the first clause of the bill. Tongue
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Blair
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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2015, 05:53:58 PM »

Well buses are actually more environmentally friendly, and I'd want to see greener hydrogen buses introduced or something basically better
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2015, 11:46:03 PM »

A bus with only one person in it is not more environmentally friendly than a car with only one person in it.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2015, 11:51:25 PM »

1. Can they not already decide to tax them in such fashion?


2. Why should we be regulating how this money is then spent if it is raised by "local authorities"?
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TNF
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2015, 06:32:26 AM »

Section one makes zero sense.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2015, 06:36:14 AM »

Local Authorities = municipalities = regional matter. I'm back!
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Cranberry
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2015, 07:00:27 AM »

Yes, I doubt as well that it is our responsibility for us to regulate things as mentioned in section 1, notwithstanding the fact that we are not constitutionally allowed to do so.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2015, 07:29:10 AM »

Yes, section 1 is a regional issue.
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bore
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2015, 07:40:29 AM »

Yeah, I can't remember exactly why I put that in there, maybe some sort of brain freeze. I originally was going to ask for some sort of tax on second homes but then decided, bizarrely, that that wasn't within our authority so put this in instead.

With regard to Hagrid, I guess we're working with somewhat different versions of rural, but I agree it makes no sense to send one bus to a house an hours drive from anywhere. It's also important that I'm not trying to get a similar level of bus service to that in the cities, the demand simply isn't there. That said, almost every town and village in the UK has at least some, it may only be once or twice a day, access to a bus service, and I see no reason why we shouldn't do the same in atlasia.

The main problem with subsidising cars is that there are whole sections of the population who can't use them, like the very elderly, whereas everyone can use a bus.
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2015, 04:13:55 PM »

I'm interested in Blair's idea of a eco-friendly bus being used for this service? I'd love for us to to mandate a provision for one of those in this bill.

In addition, I think we should subsidize the bus service for people who do not have personal automobiles. That way, we might be able to reduce their usage altogether. I'd love to do something like that for urban areas too, but I'm not sure we'd be intruding on local authority that way.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2015, 02:41:47 AM »

Yeah, I can't remember exactly why I put that in there, maybe some sort of brain freeze. I originally was going to ask for some sort of tax on second homes but then decided, bizarrely, that that wasn't within our authority so put this in instead.

With regard to Hagrid, I guess we're working with somewhat different versions of rural, but I agree it makes no sense to send one bus to a house an hours drive from anywhere. It's also important that I'm not trying to get a similar level of bus service to that in the cities, the demand simply isn't there. That said, almost every town and village in the UK has at least some, it may only be once or twice a day, access to a bus service, and I see no reason why we shouldn't do the same in atlasia.

The main problem with subsidising cars is that there are whole sections of the population who can't use them, like the very elderly, whereas everyone can use a bus.

There are places where there are towns that spread out as Hagrid alluded too and they have too few people to sustain such a long trip fuel wise and such.
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bore
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2015, 06:07:17 PM »

Yeah, I can't remember exactly why I put that in there, maybe some sort of brain freeze. I originally was going to ask for some sort of tax on second homes but then decided, bizarrely, that that wasn't within our authority so put this in instead.

With regard to Hagrid, I guess we're working with somewhat different versions of rural, but I agree it makes no sense to send one bus to a house an hours drive from anywhere. It's also important that I'm not trying to get a similar level of bus service to that in the cities, the demand simply isn't there. That said, almost every town and village in the UK has at least some, it may only be once or twice a day, access to a bus service, and I see no reason why we shouldn't do the same in atlasia.

The main problem with subsidising cars is that there are whole sections of the population who can't use them, like the very elderly, whereas everyone can use a bus.

There are places where there are towns that spread out as Hagrid alluded too and they have too few people to sustain such a long trip fuel wise and such.

True, but there are also places where they aren't ludicrously inefficient but aren't commercially viable. Even one or two buses a day to a regional centre would be a real benefit for remote areas. And, frankly, if virtually every village in the highlands can have at least one or two buses a day going somewhere I don't see why most areas in atlasia can't.
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Blair
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2015, 03:34:11 AM »

I'm really worried with the Senate, every time we try and propose something only for it to be completely dismissed by saying it's a regional matter-the regions clearly haven't acted, and transport is an area where we have have control. I don't want the senate to become a shell group that simply deals with rather arcane senate rules and regulations. We need to act to actually make a difference
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2015, 04:29:01 AM »

I'm really worried with the Senate, every time we try and propose something only for it to be completely dismissed by saying it's a regional matter-the regions clearly haven't acted, and transport is an area where we have have control. I don't want the senate to become a shell group that simply deals with rather arcane senate rules and regulations. We need to act to actually make a difference

Well, there's fundamental constitutional authority. It doesn't matter if the Regions haven't acted, we can HELP them to do so, but we cannot act off our own bat.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2015, 12:13:59 PM »

I'm really worried with the Senate, every time we try and propose something only for it to be completely dismissed by saying it's a regional matter-the regions clearly haven't acted, and transport is an area where we have have control. I don't want the senate to become a shell group that simply deals with rather arcane senate rules and regulations. We need to act to actually make a difference

We have some control over transport, but doing what's smart isn't the same as doing something just because we feel like we should.

I guess one question I have is this: Are we actually sending buses out into rural farm country or forests? Or is the idea to keep the bus service centralized around nearby population "centres" where there's at least a bit more population density?

I could support this funding if we smartly keep transit to these mini-hubs, but I still struggle to see how we'd make it work if we start carving out routes into the countryside. We can't support any measure of full service, and since rural areas are so sparsely populated the designation of transit routes would seem pretty arbitrary. Obviously it'd be based on some sort of data, but because this type of transit is so unviable, where the routes actually go would hardly matter; they're not going to be used.

People who live in the countryside exhibit a disproportionately high level of car ownership compared to people who live in urban centres. The only folks who would be less likely to have cars in rural areas are those living in the mini-hubs around a "main strip" of shops, restaurants, and the like. Service in the hubs, between the hubs, could work. Service along obscure country lanes absolutely will not.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2015, 12:20:01 PM »

I think that the first clause of the bill is a good clause and it has my support.
But I have some doubts about the second clause because the population density in the rural areas is not so high and so the implementation of this clause might be impossibile.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2015, 12:48:03 AM »

Yeah, I can't remember exactly why I put that in there, maybe some sort of brain freeze. I originally was going to ask for some sort of tax on second homes but then decided, bizarrely, that that wasn't within our authority so put this in instead.

With regard to Hagrid, I guess we're working with somewhat different versions of rural, but I agree it makes no sense to send one bus to a house an hours drive from anywhere. It's also important that I'm not trying to get a similar level of bus service to that in the cities, the demand simply isn't there. That said, almost every town and village in the UK has at least some, it may only be once or twice a day, access to a bus service, and I see no reason why we shouldn't do the same in atlasia.

The main problem with subsidising cars is that there are whole sections of the population who can't use them, like the very elderly, whereas everyone can use a bus.

There are places where there are towns that spread out as Hagrid alluded too and they have too few people to sustain such a long trip fuel wise and such.

True, but there are also places where they aren't ludicrously inefficient but aren't commercially viable. Even one or two buses a day to a regional centre would be a real benefit for remote areas. And, frankly, if virtually every village in the highlands can have at least one or two buses a day going somewhere I don't see why most areas in atlasia can't.

North Carolina hill country alone would match or exceed the Scottish Highlands. Add in WV, PA, KY, TN, GA, VA and MD and that is just part of Appalachia.

You have vast stretches of deserts in AZ and plains in Tornado alley where that trip could be a hundred miles just for a small town center.
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bore
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2015, 08:11:17 AM »

Yeah, I can't remember exactly why I put that in there, maybe some sort of brain freeze. I originally was going to ask for some sort of tax on second homes but then decided, bizarrely, that that wasn't within our authority so put this in instead.

With regard to Hagrid, I guess we're working with somewhat different versions of rural, but I agree it makes no sense to send one bus to a house an hours drive from anywhere. It's also important that I'm not trying to get a similar level of bus service to that in the cities, the demand simply isn't there. That said, almost every town and village in the UK has at least some, it may only be once or twice a day, access to a bus service, and I see no reason why we shouldn't do the same in atlasia.

The main problem with subsidising cars is that there are whole sections of the population who can't use them, like the very elderly, whereas everyone can use a bus.

There are places where there are towns that spread out as Hagrid alluded too and they have too few people to sustain such a long trip fuel wise and such.

True, but there are also places where they aren't ludicrously inefficient but aren't commercially viable. Even one or two buses a day to a regional centre would be a real benefit for remote areas. And, frankly, if virtually every village in the highlands can have at least one or two buses a day going somewhere I don't see why most areas in atlasia can't.

North Carolina hill country alone would match or exceed the Scottish Highlands. Add in WV, PA, KY, TN, GA, VA and MD and that is just part of Appalachia.

You have vast stretches of deserts in AZ and plains in Tornado alley where that trip could be a hundred miles just for a small town center.

This isn't designed to subsidise an entire network- it's more of a kickstart- if it was it would be a larger sum.

Really though I'm sturggling to see your point. Yes, a lot of atlasia is big and hard to get it, yes having a bus going to those places might be impractical. But there are also plenty of areas where buses would be a very good thing, which is what this act is designed to do.
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Blair
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2015, 10:07:21 AM »

I agree with the President, we're not calling for buses from sparsely located frontier towns in Texas to drive up to Montana. We're simply trying to support rural bus services, which helps the most vulnerable in our society, helps drive down CO2 emissions and helps economic investment
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Blair
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2015, 04:18:37 PM »

I'd like to add this amendment

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bore
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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2015, 07:23:33 AM »

I am good with Blair's amendment
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2015, 12:01:11 PM »

So we'll be making this already-impractical program even more cost inefficient? Undecided
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Blair
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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2015, 01:22:32 PM »

So we'll be making this already-impractical program even more cost inefficient? Undecided

Yes that's my exact plan. I'm proposing environmental legislation just to make this bill even worse
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windjammer
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« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2015, 03:16:52 PM »

Senators have 36 hours to object.
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