Alleviating Rural Poverty Act of 2015
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Author Topic: Alleviating Rural Poverty Act of 2015  (Read 3987 times)
HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2015, 12:30:53 PM »

I agree we need a greener transportation system. Where it works. A transportation system in the areas we're talking about doesn't make sense period. So I have a hard time seeing how the rest of your post even applies.

I support spending where and when it makes sense. It doesn't make sense here. It's not about "emasculated fiscal conservatism." It's about being pragmatic and spending money where it can make the most difference.

And again, no engagement with the other ideas (now two of them) I've put forward that could much more efficiently close the transportation gap. It's not worth me saying much more at this point.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2015, 01:53:44 AM »

But again... while I'm generally supportive of this, we cannot get huffy on an issue so important. Hagrid actually makes some important points here, namely we need to clarify what the actual primary intent of this Bill is... I think we need to be very practical and strategic here. Atlasia has vast tracks of territory where public transport is just without any practical justification (this is not Europe we're talking about here). That's not ideal, but this this isn't about idealism. There are areas of rural Atlasia with reasonable enough population density that you make a decent case for limited subsidisation of public transport, in concert with the existing providers.

It seems like the Bill is trying to 'solve' too many issues at once, social isolation of the lower-income people, reducing emissions from existing transport rather than targeting one, with strong knock-on benefits. The reality is the emissions intensity in rural areas is nowhere near as key to the issue of emissions reduction than in urban areas, although increasing the focus on cleaner tech has my full support. The key to me, and this something I have personally worked on, is decreasing social isolation and increasing economic opportunities by connecting smaller population centres to larger ones with more going on.
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bore
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« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2015, 07:51:13 AM »

I get the feeling we're talking largely at cross purposes here. Of course it's insane in large parts (like, say, in areas of the great plains) of our country to have a bus service. In those areas, a subsidised carpool or taxi service is a good idea. In other areas, where population density is similar to europe (like parts of the northeast, for example) then a bus service is the most efficient and environmental way to provie public transports.

It seems to me just as misguided to say that there are no areas in atlasia that would benefit from a bus service than to say that every rural area in atlasia should have a bus service.
 
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2015, 07:58:05 AM »

Absolutely - which is why I'm saying that that we need to be a lot more strategic here and focus more clearly on what issue we're actually focusing on. What will work in say, the NE, the South and ME won't be useful in vast areas of the MW and Pacific.
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Blair
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« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2015, 09:15:29 AM »

Surely wouldn't it be easier to give more funding to the regions to do it, and just add some rules and regs to said money
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2015, 04:03:12 PM »

Instead of yet another bill which gives funds to the regions, why can't this be a federally administered program? As long as there was some coordination with the appropriate local authorities, I don't think it would be too much of an issue.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2015, 07:52:13 PM »

Instead of yet another bill which gives funds to the regions, why can't this be a federally administered program? As long as there was some coordination with the appropriate local authorities, I don't think it would be too much of an issue.

For a number of reasons actually
1. Local knowledge
2. Maintenance of local roads is not a responsibility of ours, but would be impacted by increased traffic flows
 etc etc

But I think IF it is to be a Federally administered program (why it HAS to be... I'm not sure), then its scope must be smaller and more specifically targeted. Otherwise, you'll end up with de-markation fights and inevitably demands from the regions for things like maintenance of non-Federally owned infrastructure.

This still doesn't address what the fundamental intent of this Bill is.

My off the top of my head idea is - set parameters, distance to major settlement (ie 1500 people or more) subsidise local transportation companies to either extend existing routes or establish new ones. With reduced fares for those eligible for certain benefits?

The environmental angle is much harder to push here, because rural transport providers likely don't have the capacity to maintain green-tech vehicles at this time. Different parts, different maintenance routines, that requires training, and not the least the purchase of the vehicles. The way around it, could be to argue for increased green standards in areas of a particular density that makes investment in the time, vehicle and training worthwhile economically.

There's also an equity issue here, which is concerning, obviously rural poverty is a long-standing issue and increased connectivity to larger settlements is a big deal. But there are Atlasians who live in urban/suburban fringes who are cut off due to poor public transport options.
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TNF
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« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2015, 11:08:23 AM »

Instead of yet another bill which gives funds to the regions, why can't this be a federally administered program? As long as there was some coordination with the appropriate local authorities, I don't think it would be too much of an issue.

because MUH REGIONAL RITES
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2015, 06:46:14 PM »

Instead of yet another bill which gives funds to the regions, why can't this be a federally administered program? As long as there was some coordination with the appropriate local authorities, I don't think it would be too much of an issue.

because MUH REGIONAL RITES

Cute, but no.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2015, 02:25:54 AM »


You don't say!
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2015, 02:27:18 AM »


You don't say!
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #61 on: May 29, 2015, 02:33:16 AM »

It seems to me just as misguided to say that there are no areas in atlasia that would benefit from a bus service than to say that every rural area in atlasia should have a bus service.
 

Who has said this?


Of course there are some areas that can benefit from buses. High density city, and suburbs of said cities and rural areas within X distance of said city/suburb provided they have Y population.
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bore
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« Reply #62 on: May 29, 2015, 08:19:22 AM »

It seems to me just as misguided to say that there are no areas in atlasia that would benefit from a bus service than to say that every rural area in atlasia should have a bus service.
 

Who has said this?


Of course there are some areas that can benefit from buses. High density city, and suburbs of said cities and rural areas within X distance of said city/suburb provided they have Y population.

And are there not thousands of those rural areas in atlasia?I 'm not sure I get what your point is here.

It seems to me pretty indisputable that there are a lot of rural areas in atlasia that don't currently have bus services but would benefit from one, with a relatively minimal cost for the government. It's true that not every rural area can support a bus service, but that's no more an argument against that bill than the existence of people who aren't able to be doctors is against funding medical schools.

If Hagrid or Yankee want to propose an amendment for a car pool subsidy for the even more remote area or for their other concerns than I'd definitely consider it.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #63 on: May 29, 2015, 08:39:02 AM »

It seems to me just as misguided to say that there are no areas in atlasia that would benefit from a bus service than to say that every rural area in atlasia should have a bus service.
 

Who has said this?


Of course there are some areas that can benefit from buses. High density city, and suburbs of said cities and rural areas within X distance of said city/suburb provided they have Y population.

And are there not thousands of those rural areas in atlasia?I 'm not sure I get what your point is here.

It seems to me pretty indisputable that there are a lot of rural areas in atlasia that don't currently have bus services but would benefit from one, with a relatively minimal cost for the government. It's true that not every rural area can support a bus service, but that's no more an argument against that bill than the existence of people who aren't able to be doctors is against funding medical schools.

If Hagrid or Yankee want to propose an amendment for a car pool subsidy for the even more remote area or for their other concerns than I'd definitely consider it.

Respectfully Mr President I disagree. If we're talking about health and education we're taking about direct service provision by the Government. Usually those in very distant and remote areas have education and health provided directly by the Government. This goes back to my fundamental concern that we're skipping wanting to feel good about ourselves without determining the parameters of this Bill.

I'm not in any way dismissing any option here, but it keeps wandering down rabbit holes - what services should be provided? To whom? By whom? It seems we're too focused on ends and not means. As I said before I've personally done work in this area and it's nowhere near as easy to do as many seem to be thinking.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2015, 08:57:48 AM »

I think we either divvy up funds for the regions or set very clear parameters regarding which areas will qualify for bus service. I can work on it, but I'm afraid too many areas would be left on the chopping block for a majority of the senate go get on board.
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2015, 09:21:44 PM »

Well, it depends on whether we'd provide an alternative transportation method (such as discounted taxiing) or something for the areas that people feel are not worthy of public bus transportation.

As for divvying up money to the regions again, I don't think that's necessary. This is something the DoIA can do on a more consistent basis throughout the country in coordination with local authorities. Not a fan of giving lump sums to the regions.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2015, 11:03:02 PM »

Well, it depends on whether we'd provide an alternative transportation method (such as discounted taxiing) or something for the areas that people feel are not worthy of public bus transportation.

As for divvying up money to the regions again, I don't think that's necessary. This is something the DoIA can do on a more consistent basis throughout the country in coordination with local authorities. Not a fan of giving lump sums to the regions.

Worthy?

Anyway. The issue is that there can be Constitutional issues with by-passing the Regions. So we'd need to tread carefully.
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bore
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« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2015, 05:59:52 AM »

I'd be inclined to favour bypassing the regions here, for the simple reason that the type of areas we can help with a bus service are located more in areas like the northeast than the midwest.
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2015, 07:06:23 AM »

What exactly are the constitutional issues that would arise from making a program like this federal?
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2015, 08:10:32 AM »

What exactly are the constitutional issues that would arise from making a program like this federal?

I'm not saying there absolutely is, it's just making sure that we don't step on toes. We also need to finally determine what the parameters of this are.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #70 on: May 30, 2015, 10:45:44 PM »

I'd be inclined to favour bypassing the regions here, for the simple reason that the type of areas we can help with a bus service are located more in areas like the northeast than the midwest.

Well, those are regions.
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bore
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« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2015, 06:41:32 AM »

I'd be inclined to favour bypassing the regions here, for the simple reason that the type of areas we can help with a bus service are located more in areas like the northeast than the midwest.

Well, those are regions.

Really? I'm shocked to discover that Tongue

Basically my point is this wouldn't be something where we can apply a simple population matrix to divide it equally among regions per capita, because some regions have more need for it than others due to simple geography. Therefore, if we were to distribute it among regional governments if we did it by population we wouldn't be helping the most people because certain regions would be overpayed and certain other ones underpaid, and if we distribute it among regional governments according to need we'd be having to do an immensely calcuated sum beforehand, and then there's no guarantee the regional governments would follow that sum , leading to further waste.
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Blair
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« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2015, 11:23:09 AM »

Couldn't we just give this money to Barnes at the Department of Internal Affairs and let him set something up from there?
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2015, 07:02:22 PM »

Couldn't we just give this money to Barnes at the Department of Internal Affairs and let him set something up from there?

I would prefer to not just hand over the money, considering the importance of this issue. We do need to be clear about who? where? and how?

I do have some ideas, give me 24 hours and I'll try to put them together.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2015, 11:35:15 PM »

By all measures this bill is a train wreck for a number of reasons. Not just the intent and scope, but also the means by which handle the money has this place are divided up like wicked game of Twister.

That said, and taking the lack of posting here as an invitiation to wrest control of the debate and hopefully find some direction, energy and ideas (lest we become the Bush 41 Clinton so often derided for lacking all three in 1992?).

I think to get any sense of direction it is important to establish the primary goal of this bill is. Is a generalized bill on rural poverty? Is it a generalize bill on rural transportation? Is it a bill on tranportation every in the country? Or is it yet another bill aimed at reducing carbon emissions in the transportation infrastructure? Once that determination is made, the bill should be restructured from the title on down to achieve that end.

You must chose, but chose wisely. Tongue
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