Alleviating Rural Poverty Act of 2015

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Yeah, I can't remember exactly why I put that in there, maybe some sort of brain freeze. I originally was going to ask for some sort of tax on second homes but then decided, bizarrely, that that wasn't within our authority so put this in instead.

With regard to Hagrid, I guess we're working with somewhat different versions of rural, but I agree it makes no sense to send one bus to a house an hours drive from anywhere. It's also important that I'm not trying to get a similar level of bus service to that in the cities, the demand simply isn't there. That said, almost every town and village in the UK has at least some, it may only be once or twice a day, access to a bus service, and I see no reason why we shouldn't do the same in atlasia.

The main problem with subsidising cars is that there are whole sections of the population who can't use them, like the very elderly, whereas everyone can use a bus.

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Yeah, I can't remember exactly why I put that in there, maybe some sort of brain freeze. I originally was going to ask for some sort of tax on second homes but then decided, bizarrely, that that wasn't within our authority so put this in instead.

With regard to Hagrid, I guess we're working with somewhat different versions of rural, but I agree it makes no sense to send one bus to a house an hours drive from anywhere. It's also important that I'm not trying to get a similar level of bus service to that in the cities, the demand simply isn't there. That said, almost every town and village in the UK has at least some, it may only be once or twice a day, access to a bus service, and I see no reason why we shouldn't do the same in atlasia.

The main problem with subsidising cars is that there are whole sections of the population who can't use them, like the very elderly, whereas everyone can use a bus.

There are places where there are towns that spread out as Hagrid alluded too and they have too few people to sustain such a long trip fuel wise and such.

True, but there are also places where they aren't ludicrously inefficient but aren't commercially viable. Even one or two buses a day to a regional centre would be a real benefit for remote areas. And, frankly, if virtually every village in the highlands can have at least one or two buses a day going somewhere I don't see why most areas in atlasia can't.

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Yeah, I can't remember exactly why I put that in there, maybe some sort of brain freeze. I originally was going to ask for some sort of tax on second homes but then decided, bizarrely, that that wasn't within our authority so put this in instead.

With regard to Hagrid, I guess we're working with somewhat different versions of rural, but I agree it makes no sense to send one bus to a house an hours drive from anywhere. It's also important that I'm not trying to get a similar level of bus service to that in the cities, the demand simply isn't there. That said, almost every town and village in the UK has at least some, it may only be once or twice a day, access to a bus service, and I see no reason why we shouldn't do the same in atlasia.

The main problem with subsidising cars is that there are whole sections of the population who can't use them, like the very elderly, whereas everyone can use a bus.

There are places where there are towns that spread out as Hagrid alluded too and they have too few people to sustain such a long trip fuel wise and such.

True, but there are also places where they aren't ludicrously inefficient but aren't commercially viable. Even one or two buses a day to a regional centre would be a real benefit for remote areas. And, frankly, if virtually every village in the highlands can have at least one or two buses a day going somewhere I don't see why most areas in atlasia can't.

North Carolina hill country alone would match or exceed the Scottish Highlands. Add in WV, PA, KY, TN, GA, VA and MD and that is just part of Appalachia.

You have vast stretches of deserts in AZ and plains in Tornado alley where that trip could be a hundred miles just for a small town center.

This isn't designed to subsidise an entire network- it's more of a kickstart- if it was it would be a larger sum.

Really though I'm sturggling to see your point. Yes, a lot of atlasia is big and hard to get it, yes having a bus going to those places might be impractical. But there are also plenty of areas where buses would be a very good thing, which is what this act is designed to do.

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I am good with Blair's amendment

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I'm not sure how this bill is impractical. I can see how it would be if it sort of required by law a bus service to every town with more than 500 people or something, but it doesn't do that at all.

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The reason I proposed this bill was precisely because there often is no good public transportation in rural areas. But just because there is not currently any doesn't mean that's it's impossible. After all, there are different levels of profitability and loss. A for profit bus company won't even run a service that consistently just breaks even, let alone one that makes a small loss, and it might even decide that one which makes a small profit is too risky. The state, can, however, take a wider view here, because public transport has other benefits which aren't simply a matter of making money and can offset the subsidy, so to speak. For instance, public transport means the poor who can't afford a car aren't confined to within walking distance of their house. It gives the elderly who are no longer able to drive far more ability, and, of course, one bus journey is equal to like 30 car journeys, so it's good for the environment.

I'm happy to concede that this subsidy would go to marginally unprofitable routes (otherwise, frankly, what would be the point?) but even if that would be a net loss of income, it would be still be a positive thing overall.

The only way I would agree with Hagrid is if we were subsiding massively loss making routes, but, the fact that basically everywhere in say, the highlands, has a bus service of some sort, which shows it's not that inefficient, and that, as yankee points out, the US is a big country means we won't struggle to find marginally profitable routes to fund.

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In response to hagrid's point, I guess I just don't see why the low farebox recovery rate in urban areas (although we should be careful here, because they're pretty profitable in europe and asia) means, necessarily, that they will be even worse for rural areas. While it's true that there are more potential users in cities there are also far far more buses so more drivers are employed, and there is also more competition. I see no reason why the number of empty seats on an average bus would be less in rural areas than in cities, and that is important.

I suppose you could argue that it's the amount of fuel needed when compared to the city that makes it uneconomic but the existence of so many relatively cheap intercity buses suggests that fuel isn't the main cost involved.

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I get the feeling we're talking largely at cross purposes here. Of course it's insane in large parts (like, say, in areas of the great plains) of our country to have a bus service. In those areas, a subsidised carpool or taxi service is a good idea. In other areas, where population density is similar to europe (like parts of the northeast, for example) then a bus service is the most efficient and environmental way to provie public transports.

It seems to me just as misguided to say that there are no areas in atlasia that would benefit from a bus service than to say that every rural area in atlasia should have a bus service.
 

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It seems to me just as misguided to say that there are no areas in atlasia that would benefit from a bus service than to say that every rural area in atlasia should have a bus service.
 

Who has said this?


Of course there are some areas that can benefit from buses. High density city, and suburbs of said cities and rural areas within X distance of said city/suburb provided they have Y population.

And are there not thousands of those rural areas in atlasia?I 'm not sure I get what your point is here.

It seems to me pretty indisputable that there are a lot of rural areas in atlasia that don't currently have bus services but would benefit from one, with a relatively minimal cost for the government. It's true that not every rural area can support a bus service, but that's no more an argument against that bill than the existence of people who aren't able to be doctors is against funding medical schools.

If Hagrid or Yankee want to propose an amendment for a car pool subsidy for the even more remote area or for their other concerns than I'd definitely consider it.

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I'd be inclined to favour bypassing the regions here, for the simple reason that the type of areas we can help with a bus service are located more in areas like the northeast than the midwest.

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I'd be inclined to favour bypassing the regions here, for the simple reason that the type of areas we can help with a bus service are located more in areas like the northeast than the midwest.

Well, those are regions.

Really? I'm shocked to discover that

Basically my point is this wouldn't be something where we can apply a simple population matrix to divide it equally among regions per capita, because some regions have more need for it than others due to simple geography. Therefore, if we were to distribute it among regional governments if we did it by population we wouldn't be helping the most people because certain regions would be overpayed and certain other ones underpaid, and if we distribute it among regional governments according to need we'd be having to do an immensely calcuated sum beforehand, and then there's no guarantee the regional governments would follow that sum , leading to further waste.

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Yeah, the way I look at it section 1 seems to mainly be subsidising express inter city routes, there's no reason for bus companies to add on genuinely rural areas. Parts 2 and 3 look good though.

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How about the subsidy is given to bus routes that stop somewhere that didn't have a service before?

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Right, I get that the intention is to only subsidise routes that legitimately expand to cover rural areas, but the way it's currently worded does leave it open to inter city routes and suburban expansions.

To be honest I think we have to accept that the line between a genuinely needy rural area and an already served one, or a suburban area with subways but no buses is very difficult in theory to draw but, in practice, a lot easier to see. I think we should consider a grant system administered by the department for internal affairs to solve the problem of the difficulty of a watertight definition.

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I largely sympathise with TNF's point here, actually, that in most cases it's probably easier to do it ourselves than to pay a for profit corporation to do it. That said there will be cases where an inter city bus goes through a rural area and it's more economical to subsisidise them to introduce a stop there than to provide our own service so it's an option for the SoIA to have on the table.

I welcome any counter proposals/amendments/suggestions

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I'm very glad we were finally able to pass this. Thank you everyone

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