BREAKING: Boston Bomber sentenced to death
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  BREAKING: Boston Bomber sentenced to death
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Author Topic: BREAKING: Boston Bomber sentenced to death  (Read 7405 times)
Joe Republic
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« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2015, 05:46:06 PM »

Oppose the state killing any its own citizens on ideological grounds, but can't feel sorry for this guy at all.

He certainly didn't.

And to the poster who said, "Aren't we supposed to be better than them?" ... WE ARE.  We're ridding the world of an unrepentant, psychopathic murderer who made a direct attack on our innocent citizens and, more broadly, our way of life.

Good decision, and I hope he rots in hell.

This is precisely why death penalty supporters bug me.  You guys believe that his execution is just the beginning of his punishment, when the rest of us think that's it's the premature end.

edited. It's impossible to truly prove or disprove the existence of hell.

Sure, if you're still a child, or at least think like one.

And don't edit my posts again.  That's one of the few rules Dave actively cares about.
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Ebowed
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« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2015, 08:24:46 PM »

Disgusting.
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muon2
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« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2015, 09:02:21 PM »

There's a side of retributive justice that has not been raised, but is relevant. It isn't about punishment to the criminal, but closure to the public who endured the trauma of knowing people directly or indirectly impacted by the bombing. Part of the terror was the lockdown of Boston for days during the manhunt. The additional murder while on the run, is the tipping point for me that a death penalty is warranted. Even though it may take years, thats a sooner closure to the case than natural life.

BTW, I just landed in Boston as I write this, so I may be able to post some firsthand impressions of the decision from those who were impacted.
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Türkisblau
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« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2015, 09:31:12 PM »
« Edited: May 15, 2015, 09:36:34 PM by Pacific Speaker Türkisblau »

As someone who is unconditionally pro-life, I feel distressed, disappointed, and overall let down by both this decision and the incredibly inhumane way many here have responded. It is especially concerning when those of faith respond in such a way.

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Hifly
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« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2015, 09:54:16 PM »

This makes me physically sick. America is a sh**t backward country.

Thanks, Obama!
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Beet
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« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2015, 10:05:25 PM »

Glad to see most people on Huffington Post opposing this.
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RFayette
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« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2015, 10:10:58 PM »

As someone who is unconditionally pro-life, I feel distressed, disappointed, and overall let down by both this decision and the incredibly inhumane way many here have responded. It is especially concerning when those of faith respond in such a way.


Um, other than the adultery/stoning passage, I don't see anything where Jesus would condemn a government for carrying out a prescribed penalty for violating a crime, especially as something as heinous as murder.  I don't know what Jesus would think, but empirically, most Christians are pro-death penalty, and probably at a higher rate than the rest of the country. 


I understand we have different moral systems, but why are you "distressed" by a criminal who hates society getting his just deserts?  If he got life without parole, it would have a similar effect, and I'm sure  you wouldn't criticize that.   So what's the big difference?
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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2015, 10:36:59 PM »

Odd how those who want terrorist Tsarnaev to live are the ones who wear the "I had an abortion!" t-shirts.
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Türkisblau
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« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2015, 10:47:00 PM »

Odd how those who want terrorist Tsarnaev to live are the ones who wear the "I had an abortion!" t-shirts.

"The new evangelization calls for followers of Christ who are unconditionally pro-life: who will proclaim, celebrate and serve the Gospel of life in every situation. A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. . . . I renew the appeal I made . . . for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary." -Pope John Paul II

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Türkisblau
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« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2015, 10:53:03 PM »

As someone who is unconditionally pro-life, I feel distressed, disappointed, and overall let down by both this decision and the incredibly inhumane way many here have responded. It is especially concerning when those of faith respond in such a way.


Um, other than the adultery/stoning passage, I don't see anything where Jesus would condemn a government for carrying out a prescribed penalty for violating a crime, especially as something as heinous as murder.  I don't know what Jesus would think, but empirically, most Christians are pro-death penalty, and probably at a higher rate than the rest of the country. 


I understand we have different moral systems, but why are you "distressed" by a criminal who hates society getting his just deserts?  If he got life without parole, it would have a similar effect, and I'm sure  you wouldn't criticize that.   So what's the big difference?

Lol, your ignorance of theology is showing. Also arguments like "but people who are religious are pro-death penalty!" doesn't disprove the fact that Christian teaching runs counter to any concept of the death penalty. Did you even read the quote I put in my post?

Here's some more from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops:

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The fact that you think that Jesus, who explicit taught forgiveness, would not condemn the modern use of the death penalty is just ignorant. He was not nearly as hypocritical as many on the religious right are today...

Why does it distress me? It's morally heinous public policy and destroys our society when we find it prudent to fight atrocities with more atrocities. We are continuing down a path that is untenable when we continue the use of the death  penalty.

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CountryClassSF
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« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2015, 11:20:21 PM »

Turk, I respect your view of being pro-life in all instances. It's consistent. Most Catholics in my family hold this position. I simply, however, cannot understand people who so value the life of an unrepentant terrorist, but have no moral objection to killing an unborn child.

Also, congrats on leaving the Democrat Party.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2015, 11:31:16 PM »

Turk, I respect your view of being pro-life in all instances. It's consistent. Most Catholics in my family hold this position. I simply, however, cannot understand people who so value the life of an unrepentant terrorist, but have no moral objection to killing an unborn child.
What is so difficult about understanding that those who favor allowing abortion under certain circumstances do not view an embryo (and a fetus as well if they favor allowing second trimester abortion) as an unborn child?  I'm not saying you should agree with them, but understanding their viewpoint, even tho you consider it wrong, shouldn't be difficult at all.
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SATW
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« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2015, 11:39:57 PM »

I respect Turkisblau's stance, and also disagree respectfully. I am 100% in favor of the death penalty, particularly in this case.
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RFayette
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« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2015, 11:54:41 PM »

As someone who is unconditionally pro-life, I feel distressed, disappointed, and overall let down by both this decision and the incredibly inhumane way many here have responded. It is especially concerning when those of faith respond in such a way.


Um, other than the adultery/stoning passage, I don't see anything where Jesus would condemn a government for carrying out a prescribed penalty for violating a crime, especially as something as heinous as murder.  I don't know what Jesus would think, but empirically, most Christians are pro-death penalty, and probably at a higher rate than the rest of the country. 


I understand we have different moral systems, but why are you "distressed" by a criminal who hates society getting his just deserts?  If he got life without parole, it would have a similar effect, and I'm sure  you wouldn't criticize that.   So what's the big difference?

Lol, your ignorance of theology is showing. Also arguments like "but people who are religious are pro-death penalty!" doesn't disprove the fact that Christian teaching runs counter to any concept of the death penalty. Did you even read the quote I put in my post?

Here's some more from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops:

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

The fact that you think that Jesus, who explicit taught forgiveness, would not condemn the modern use of the death penalty is just ignorant. He was not nearly as hypocritical as many on the religious right are today...

Why does it distress me? It's morally heinous public policy and destroys our society when we find it prudent to fight atrocities with more atrocities. We are continuing down a path that is untenable when we continue the use of the death  penalty.

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A few responses:
1. Your quote cites Exodus, one of the first books in the Old Testament, which also specifically prescribes the death penalty for numerous offenses.  The same God of the Old Testament also calls the Jews to war against other tribes.  "Kill" has generally been interpreted as "murder."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RENPaY043o
When it comes to theological stuff, I admit I'm quite biased toward the Protestant side, so for me, a quote from a bishop or Pope has no bearing without the scripture if we are to talk about the "traditional Christian" view of something.

2. The term "destroying society" is awfully strong for simply meting out justice to those who commit atrocious acts.  I don't understand how a humanely, fairly-administered death penalty after a fair trial is an "atrocity" whereas a life-without-parole sentence in a supermax prison is a "just punishment."   Psychologically, you could argue the latter is more damaging anyways. 

I will grant you Jesus's argument of forgiveness, but you must also believe life without parole is also unjust.  I can't see how you could support one but not the other while being consistent.

3. Rather than denigrating the sanctity of life, the death penalty for murderers upholds the principle that life is so sacred that if you violate someone else's right to life, you thereby forfeit that  precious thing.  After all, that communicates just how seriously we take a person's right to life to be. 
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RFayette
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« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2015, 11:56:54 PM »

Also, one last thing Turk:  Jesus never condemned the Romans for their justice system which instituted the death penalty for common criminals.  Jesus said "Give unto Caesar that which is his"; he never criticized the Romans for executing robbers, thieves, etc., and they used the death penalty far more extensively than we do now.

I respect your viewpoint, but  I frankly do not see eye-to-eye with you on this.
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Beet
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« Reply #65 on: May 16, 2015, 12:03:48 AM »

I'm 100% pro-life -- even conscious animal life, should be respected to the highest degree possible. However, an unfertilized embryo is not yet a life in a moral sense because it has never been conscious, and does not become conscious until some later point during development. Otherwise, then millions of people are dying merely by the fact that about a third of embryos naturally fail to implant, and this is a crisis that requires immediate intervention. At an earlier stage of pregnancy, the life of people who are or have been conscious, and will be again, has to be given a higher priority.

A ban on abortion after the point of fetal first consciousness does make sense, but I understand people who would oppose it even then, on the ground that no person is obligated to lend the use of their body to another, even if it would result in the other's death. I wouldn't support that position, but I think it's the one a strict libertarian would take.

As far as the Bible goes, it is does not unambiguously take the modern anti-abortion rights stance by any means. Indeed, both St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas both cited "quickening" as the point of "ensoulment", and in this respect I think my position outlined above is closer to theirs, than the view that a fully moral human is created at the moment the sperm penetrates the egg.
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Sprouts Farmers Market ✘
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« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2015, 12:05:10 AM »

Using the Bible as a citation for specific morals is a flawed way to think anyway, but sadly it's what millions in this country are going to do anyway.
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Beet
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« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2015, 12:07:45 AM »

Using the Bible as a citation for specific morals is a flawed way to think anyway, but sadly it's what millions in this country are going to do anyway.

Of course, I don't base my view on the Bible, but as a Christian, it does matter to me from a personal standpoint, and I respect others for whom it is significant.
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shua
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« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2015, 12:07:54 AM »
« Edited: May 16, 2015, 12:09:37 AM by shua »

Also, one last thing Turk:  Jesus never condemned the Romans for their justice system which instituted the death penalty for common criminals.  Jesus said "Give unto Caesar that which is his"; he never criticized the Romans for executing robbers, thieves, etc., and they used the death penalty far more extensively than we do now.

I respect your viewpoint, but  I frankly do not see eye-to-eye with you on this.

Maybe he did criticize it directly - the Gospels were not written as an exhaustive account of everything Jesus ever said, but for things that would have relevance to their particular audiences.

The biggest way in which Jesus critiqued the death penalty was by being subjected to it, which should lead us to question systems of violence meeting out human ideas of justice.
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Sprouts Farmers Market ✘
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« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2015, 12:12:17 AM »
« Edited: May 16, 2015, 12:17:49 AM by SMilo »

Using the Bible as a citation for specific morals is a flawed way to think anyway, but sadly it's what millions in this country are going to do anyway.

Of course, I don't base my view on the Bible, but as a Christian, it does matter to me from a personal standpoint, and I respect others for whom it is significant.

(Response was intended for RFayette regarding the issue of the death penalty not being called out. I don't even want to get into the issue of abortion which has even less to take from the Bible. Taking the moral perspective of one time period is a horrendous way to rationalize a current policy.)
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Beet
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« Reply #70 on: May 16, 2015, 12:37:13 AM »

Using the Bible as a citation for specific morals is a flawed way to think anyway, but sadly it's what millions in this country are going to do anyway.

Of course, I don't base my view on the Bible, but as a Christian, it does matter to me from a personal standpoint, and I respect others for whom it is significant.

(Response was intended for RFayette regarding the issue of the death penalty not being called out. I don't even want to get into the issue of abortion which has even less to take from the Bible. Taking the moral perspective of one time period is a horrendous way to rationalize a current policy.)

Certainly, but if the other side is going to be talking about it, then so will I.
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« Reply #71 on: May 16, 2015, 02:43:48 AM »

In a way any singular act of wrongdoing ultimately warrants death according to Christianity. That's kind of the whole point of Jesus dying and then resurrecting.

What really, really irks me about the celebration of the death penalty from the perspective of these kinds of Christians is that you're basically cutting short someone's chances to repent (at least from some theological perspectives) and attempt to do good. Wouldn't that be an amazing illustration of the power of God? How you can call the death penalty consistent with grace and forgiveness and love is absolutely baffling. It is completely contrary to the whole point of everything you claim to believe.

It should go without saying after that that I don't agree with this decision whatsoever, but I'm mostly just disappointed with otherwise decent people being complacent about yet more death.
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jfern
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« Reply #72 on: May 16, 2015, 03:12:13 AM »

Obviously he's a bad person, but that's no excuse for the government to be in the killing business.
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Torie
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« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2015, 07:01:29 AM »
« Edited: May 16, 2015, 07:05:19 AM by Torie »

There's a side of retributive justice that has not been raised, but is relevant. It isn't about punishment to the criminal, but closure to the public who endured the trauma of knowing people directly or indirectly impacted by the bombing. Part of the terror was the lockdown of Boston for days during the manhunt. The additional murder while on the run, is the tipping point for me that a death penalty is warranted. Even though it may take years, thats a sooner closure to the case than natural life.

BTW, I just landed in Boston as I write this, so I may be able to post some firsthand impressions of the decision from those who were impacted.

The bolded bit about precisely where the tipping point is for you is similar to the argument for the death penalty for someone who kills in prison sentenced there to life without possibility for parole. Without the death penalty, such additional killings carry no incremental penalty at all. They are essentially a freebie. I do favor the death penalty in certain very limited instances, assuming that the  predicate of one having absolute certainty that you have the right killer has otherwise been met, and this case would be one of them.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2015, 07:32:46 AM »

There's a side of retributive justice that has not been raised, but is relevant. It isn't about punishment to the criminal, but closure to the public who endured the trauma of knowing people directly or indirectly impacted by the bombing.

I don't believe it's really working. They may feel better for a brief moment, but it won't bring back anybody to life nor heal sustained wounds. Beside, under American system, they will have to wait for years (maybe even two decades) before he is executed and many won't even live to see that. No hope for a closure, even brief one, for them.

I honestly don't see people impacted nor population in general benefiting from executing him (nor anyone else).
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