269-269 EC with 50-50 Senate
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  269-269 EC with 50-50 Senate
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Author Topic: 269-269 EC with 50-50 Senate  (Read 12943 times)
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ExtremeRepublican
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« on: May 16, 2015, 10:23:00 PM »

Of course, the House chooses the President, but how is the VP chosen?
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The Other Castro
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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2015, 10:59:02 PM »

Keep voting until someone wins.
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Ebsy
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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2015, 11:44:32 PM »

Or come up with a compromise candidate.
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2015, 12:20:43 AM »

Or come up with a compromise candidate.

They can't. The Senate can only choose from among the top two finishers in the electoral college vote.

And "a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice," so the outgoing Vice President probably doesn't get to cast a tie-breaking vote. If the Senate truly remains deadlocked until the new President is sworn in on January 20, the new president could probably then fill the vacancy through the normal nominating process under the 25th amendment. That would of course still require a majority vote in both houses, but the President at that point could pick an alternate compromise candidate for VP if necessary.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2015, 01:06:27 AM »

Yeah, the Veep doesn't get to vote.  Not only that, but if there is a Senate vacancy, it still requires 51 Senators.  50-49 doesn't cut it. (The same's true in the House.  It takes 26 States positively voting for someone, even if some States are tied or not voting.)
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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2015, 01:40:38 AM »

Of course, the House chooses the President, but how is the VP chosen?

This could have happened in 2000




Bush 269
Gore 269


Oregon , Florida, NM, Wisconsin were all close flip the results and you get a tie
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Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2015, 01:33:01 PM »

Really? When CNN was talking about this possibility in the run up to 2012,  they said the veep could break the tie in this scenario.
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Ebsy
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2015, 01:59:40 PM »

Really? When CNN was talking about this possibility in the run up to 2012,  they said the veep could break the tie in this scenario.
CNN rarely knows what the h [Inks] it is talking about.
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2015, 03:42:28 PM »

Really? When CNN was talking about this possibility in the run up to 2012,  they said the veep could break the tie in this scenario.

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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2015, 04:00:25 AM »

As of right now:

Presidential:
GOP (34): AL, AK, AZ, AR, CO, FL, GA, ID, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA, MI, MS, MO, MT, NE, NV, NC, ND, OH, OK, PA, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, WV, WI, and WY

DEM  (14): CA, CT, DE, HI, ILL, MD, MA, MN, NM, NY, OR, RI, VT, and WA

Blank (2): NH and NJ

And of Course VP:

GOP (54)
Dem (46)

Natually, this will change, but it just illustrates how badly the Dems got hammered in the House in 2010 and 2014.
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Gekkonidae
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2015, 09:46:37 PM »

 A situation worth a movie. Hey, I want some pop corn Cheesy
Pacman uvu
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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2015, 03:25:41 AM »

Yeah, the Veep doesn't get to vote.  Not only that, but if there is a Senate vacancy, it still requires 51 Senators.  50-49 doesn't cut it. (The same's true in the House.  It takes 26 States positively voting for someone, even if some States are tied or not voting.)

I always assumed that if the 2000 election was challenged and there was a party line vote, Gore would have gotten to cast the tie breaking vote for his running mate.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2015, 11:40:10 AM »

Yeah, the Veep doesn't get to vote.  Not only that, but if there is a Senate vacancy, it still requires 51 Senators.  50-49 doesn't cut it. (The same's true in the House.  It takes 26 States positively voting for someone, even if some States are tied or not voting.)

I always assumed that if the 2000 election was challenged and there was a party line vote, Gore would have gotten to cast the tie breaking vote for his running mate.
If there was a motion on whether to accept the votes cast by Florida's electors, then Gore could have broken a tie on that motion, since it would be an ordinary vote of the Senate,  But in the contingent election of a Vice President, he would have had no role except to preside.
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BigVic
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2015, 10:56:51 PM »

The Speaker (Welp) becomes President in the event of a 269-269 tie and a 50:50 senate. Had we had a tie in 2012, Romney would've been Prez and Biden would've been Veep. This woud've been the first time America has a split administration. The Electoral College is weird and wacky.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2015, 07:49:31 AM »

That's not how it works, plus we had a split administration as a result of the 1800 election.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2015, 03:23:50 PM »

What if the House vote were a 25-25 split, with no delegations willing to abstain or switch votes?  If still a stalemate by the 20th, is the presidency deemed vacant?
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2015, 06:50:28 PM »

What if the House vote were a 25-25 split, with no delegations willing to abstain or switch votes?  If still a stalemate by the 20th, is the presidency deemed vacant?

20th Amendment:
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So the Vice President-Elect would become acting president until the stalemate in the House could be broken. And if the House and Senate were both deadlocked, then the Speaker  would be acting president until either stalemate could be broken.
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jfern
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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2015, 02:19:50 AM »

That's not how it works, plus we had a split administration as a result of the 1800 election.

Jefferson / Burr were elected as a ticket. There was that stupid tie between them that the 12th amendment took care of.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2015, 04:27:29 AM »

That's not how it works, plus we had a split administration as a result of the 1800 election.

Jefferson / Burr were elected as a ticket. There was that stupid tie between them that the 12th amendment took care of.
My bad, I meant the 1796 election.
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Figs
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« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2015, 12:02:09 PM »

What if the House vote were a 25-25 split, with no delegations willing to abstain or switch votes?  If still a stalemate by the 20th, is the presidency deemed vacant?

20th Amendment:
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So the Vice President-Elect would become acting president until the stalemate in the House could be broken. And if the House and Senate were both deadlocked, then the Speaker  would be acting president until either stalemate could be broken.

[SPOILERS]

This is exactly what seems about to happen in the end of the latest season of Veep. Though they've been playing fast and loose and saying the Vice President-Elect would become President, not Acting President.

[/SPOILERS]
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SteveRogers
duncan298
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« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2015, 01:26:54 PM »

What if the House vote were a 25-25 split, with no delegations willing to abstain or switch votes?  If still a stalemate by the 20th, is the presidency deemed vacant?

20th Amendment:
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So the Vice President-Elect would become acting president until the stalemate in the House could be broken. And if the House and Senate were both deadlocked, then the Speaker  would be acting president until either stalemate could be broken.

[SPOILERS]

This is exactly what seems about to happen in the end of the latest season of Veep. Though they've been playing fast and loose and saying the Vice President-Elect would become President, not Acting President.

[/SPOILERS]

Yeah, that bugged me. Plus they hinted that if Tom James became President under that scenario that he might appoint Selena as his Vice President, which I guess is probably technically allowable but would open up a really big can of worms if the House did break the stalemate later on after the term began.
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Figs
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« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2015, 01:31:33 PM »

What if the House vote were a 25-25 split, with no delegations willing to abstain or switch votes?  If still a stalemate by the 20th, is the presidency deemed vacant?

20th Amendment:
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So the Vice President-Elect would become acting president until the stalemate in the House could be broken. And if the House and Senate were both deadlocked, then the Speaker  would be acting president until either stalemate could be broken.

[SPOILERS]

This is exactly what seems about to happen in the end of the latest season of Veep. Though they've been playing fast and loose and saying the Vice President-Elect would become President, not Acting President.

[/SPOILERS]

Yeah, that bugged me. Plus they hinted that if Tom James became President under that scenario that he might appoint Selena as his Vice President, which I guess is probably technically allowable but would open up a really big can of worms if the House did break the stalemate later on after the term began.

So would an Acting President have all of the power that a President has? I mean, presumably, right? It just feels weird to me that somebody in a transitional role like that could potentially nominate a Vice President.

Of course that's probably the way to get Selina back into the VP's office, right? Tom James becomes President, nominates Selina to be Vice President, and then the vote in the House breaks to O'Brien, so Selina winds up as VP to her opponent?

Except that Tom James would still be the Vice-President-Elect in that scenario. Wouldn't that keep him from being able to nominate someone to the Vice Presidency, as he's technically pre-occupying the office himself?
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SteveRogers
duncan298
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« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2015, 03:02:04 PM »

What if the House vote were a 25-25 split, with no delegations willing to abstain or switch votes?  If still a stalemate by the 20th, is the presidency deemed vacant?

20th Amendment:
Quote
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So the Vice President-Elect would become acting president until the stalemate in the House could be broken. And if the House and Senate were both deadlocked, then the Speaker  would be acting president until either stalemate could be broken.

[SPOILERS]

This is exactly what seems about to happen in the end of the latest season of Veep. Though they've been playing fast and loose and saying the Vice President-Elect would become President, not Acting President.

[/SPOILERS]

Yeah, that bugged me. Plus they hinted that if Tom James became President under that scenario that he might appoint Selena as his Vice President, which I guess is probably technically allowable but would open up a really big can of worms if the House did break the stalemate later on after the term began.

So would an Acting President have all of the power that a President has? I mean, presumably, right? It just feels weird to me that somebody in a transitional role like that could potentially nominate a Vice President.

Of course that's probably the way to get Selina back into the VP's office, right? Tom James becomes President, nominates Selina to be Vice President, and then the vote in the House breaks to O'Brien, so Selina winds up as VP to her opponent?

Except that Tom James would still be the Vice-President-Elect in that scenario. Wouldn't that keep him from being able to nominate someone to the Vice Presidency, as he's technically pre-occupying the office himself?

Well yes, the Acting President would have all the ordinary powers of the presidency, including nominating a Veep, BUT as you point out, if the Vice President is Acting as president, then the office of the Vice President isn't really vacant, so they probably wouldn't be able to nominate a new Veep. So I take back my earlier statement and don't think the scenario proposed on the show is possible. But of course the language in the constitution is vague enough that James could still try it. And now that you mention it, the scenario you propose above that ends with an O'Brien- Meyer administration might actually be the logical way for the show to go next season, even if in real life it would probably trigger a constitutional crisis.

(Note that this is different than a scenario where, say, the President is incapacitated, the Vice President is dead, and the Speaker is Acting President. In that scenario the Acting President can appoint a new Veep which the President could be stuck with
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Figs
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« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2015, 03:22:32 PM »

That raises an interesting question. If the President is incapacitated and the VP dead, and the Speaker as acting president nominated and confirmed a Vice President, would the VP then become acting president?
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SteveRogers
duncan298
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« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2015, 04:29:30 PM »

That raises an interesting question. If the President is incapacitated and the VP dead, and the Speaker as acting president nominated and confirmed a Vice President, would the VP then become acting president?

Ooh that's a hard one to answer and one that I hadn't thought of when I posted that. Let's see...

The Presidential Succession Act says:
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So those scenarios deal with (1) the electoral deadlock scenario and (2) a scenario where the president and VP are just incapacitated temporarily. Otherwise, the act says the Speaker is supposed to keep on acting as president for the whole term.

There's no provision expressly indicating that a new VP would "bump" a speaker out of the office of the presidency which you would expect there would be if that's what congress intended because the act does expressly provide that a new Speaker or Senate Pres. Pro tempore does bump a cabinet member out of the acting president slot.

I'm not sure that the Constitutional provision empowering congress to establish a line of succession really answers this question.
Article II, Sec. 6:
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But I think the 25th Amendment potentially resolves the problem here. First, the 25th Amendment clarifies that,
 
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So if the president is dead and the speaker as acting president nominates a new vice president, then I think the most reasonable reading of the constitution is that the new vice president definitely immediately becomes president. But we want to know what happens when the president is incapacitated. Sec. 4 of the 25th Amendment provides that the VP and a majority of the cabinet can declare a presidential incapacity, at which point
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So even though the speaker would currently be discharging the powers of the president, the actual president would be incapacitated and the new VP should be able to use this procedure to displace the speaker as acting president. HOWEVER, in both scenarios (death and incapacity of president) the speaker could argue that the person currently acting as president is treated as the president for purposes of the 25th amendment because when the speaker acts as president, the real president isn't really the president at that moment.

So I guess the answer is "maybe"?

All of this reminds me that I need to go finally finish my "Succession Game" timeline.
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