Criminal Justice (Reform) Act
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Author Topic: Criminal Justice (Reform) Act  (Read 6556 times)
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #100 on: June 23, 2015, 12:45:40 AM »

No one is denying the need for this reform in general. However, it does provide an opportunity both now and in the future to address these things as you state, but it is before us now and therefore it would be a mistake to waste this opportunity.

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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #101 on: June 23, 2015, 12:51:26 AM »

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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #102 on: June 23, 2015, 01:08:15 AM »

Supposedly the entirety of the original bill introduced is sourced from existing statute, and it's just being compiled here. We need to see the relevant and applicable links to make sure there is nothing being added to this that would otherwise not pass if it wasn't already statute; otherwise, Laborites need to lock down against its passage - we all know how unfriendly and biased the justice system has been to us. Then, some of these vague and all-encompassing pieces of statute need to be repealed.

Also, maximum sentences are a good idea - there is historically an inconsistency in how people are sentence for various crimes.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #103 on: June 23, 2015, 10:36:08 AM »

Supposedly the entirety of the original bill introduced is sourced from existing statute, and it's just being compiled here.

Who supposes this? Most of this bill is new as most of it is concerned with procedure: existing procedure is awful and needs to be replaced. I have already explained this point but am more than happy to do so again on request. What is largely not new is the list of offences and the general structure of sentencing. What I have done there is to try to a) plug loopholes and to improve precision while b) allowing for greater flexibility on behalf of the judicial apparatus.

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All existing Atlasian law is on the wiki, to which I have linked multiple times in this thread. I should point out here that your members would almost certainly have had an easier time were this law in force: there is no way that Mr Fitzgerald could have been convicted under the new standards of proof, for instance. You might be spectacularly uninterested in procedure (understandable: it is objectively tedious), but it is procedure that has repeatedly had your party by the short and curlies.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #104 on: June 23, 2015, 10:40:40 AM »

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Minimum sentences are unconstitutional.
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #105 on: June 23, 2015, 11:14:22 AM »

I object to the amendment.

A vote on the amendment is now open.

The vote will last 72 hours or until a majority exists to pass or fail the amendment.



NAY
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Blair
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« Reply #106 on: June 23, 2015, 11:25:06 AM »

nay
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Boston Bread
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« Reply #107 on: June 23, 2015, 12:59:01 PM »

nay

The thing I object to is the low maximum for treason and electoral intimidation.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #108 on: June 23, 2015, 06:57:21 PM »

NAY
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #109 on: June 23, 2015, 08:46:19 PM »

Supposedly the entirety of the original bill introduced is sourced from existing statute, and it's just being compiled here.

Who supposes this? Most of this bill is new as most of it is concerned with procedure: existing procedure is awful and needs to be replaced. I have already explained this point but am more than happy to do so again on request. What is largely not new is the list of offences and the general structure of sentencing. What I have done there is to try to a) plug loopholes and to improve precision while b) allowing for greater flexibility on behalf of the judicial apparatus.

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All existing Atlasian law is on the wiki, to which I have linked multiple times in this thread. I should point out here that your members would almost certainly have had an easier time were this law in force: there is no way that Mr Fitzgerald could have been convicted under the new standards of proof, for instance. You might be spectacularly uninterested in procedure (understandable: it is objectively tedious), but it is procedure that has repeatedly had your party by the short and curlies.

Well, that was my initial opinion when I looked over the initial bill and made my first comments some time ago, but a certain Senator informed me yesterday that this was actually an attempt to bring all of the existing statutes under one bill for easier organization.

Such is why I expressed a different opinion yesterday and referenced the need to see the links to the bills, because I was also told that the links to existing statute had not been produced. Huh I suppose I will now need to read this entire debate, instead of assuming a knowledgeable Senator had told me the truth or knew what was going on since its introduction...
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #110 on: June 23, 2015, 10:44:42 PM »

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Minimum sentences are unconstitutional.

I actually screwed up the first strike through by reading that is maximum instead of minimum.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #111 on: June 24, 2015, 04:42:51 PM »

Is there anyway to cancel the vote, as I would like to withdraw this version and offer a corrected one if possible?
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bore
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« Reply #112 on: June 24, 2015, 06:13:23 PM »

Was anyone voting against it because of that bit, and if they weren't is it worth wasting time on another vote?
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #113 on: June 24, 2015, 06:18:24 PM »

Yankee, just vote NAY on your uncorrected amendment and we can end the vote there because it'll have enough votes to fail.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #114 on: June 25, 2015, 02:11:01 AM »

Nay
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #115 on: June 25, 2015, 02:14:46 AM »

The thing I object to is the low maximum for treason and electoral intimidation.

Three and two is low?

Would you return after a two year ban? Put percantages on the chances of you returning and not losing interest.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #116 on: June 25, 2015, 02:15:37 AM »

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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #117 on: June 25, 2015, 02:16:45 AM »

Was anyone voting against it because of that bit, and if they weren't is it worth wasting time on another vote?

I think recent events have illustrated quite plainly the need for such amendments to be offered.
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #118 on: June 25, 2015, 08:11:45 AM »

The amendment has failed.

NAY (5) - Yankee, Talleyrand, Polnut, New Canadaland, Blair
Not Voting (3) - Hagrid, Cris, Turkisblau

Senators have 24 hours to object to Yankee's amendment.
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Boston Bread
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« Reply #119 on: June 25, 2015, 01:30:29 PM »

Three and two is low?

Would you return after a two year ban? Put percantages on the chances of you returning and not losing interest.
Many have been regular posters on the forum for much longer than that and I do see potential for them to return and cause trouble if they are still on the forum when their ban ends. It really should be reserved for heinous crimes like deleting records, which would merit a higher maximum sentence. A longer maximum length should be reserved for those few cases.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #120 on: June 25, 2015, 02:45:44 PM »

Nay for the record.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #121 on: June 26, 2015, 01:47:51 AM »

Three and two is low?

Would you return after a two year ban? Put percantages on the chances of you returning and not losing interest.
Many have been regular posters on the forum for much longer than that and I do see potential for them to return and cause trouble if they are still on the forum when their ban ends. It really should be reserved for heinous crimes like deleting records, which would merit a higher maximum sentence. A longer maximum length should be reserved for those few cases.

My point is not that "these people won't return, therefore we can risk a shorter sentence". My point is that these are long enough to be death sentences, for an online game and that just strikes me as excessive.
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bore
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« Reply #122 on: June 26, 2015, 07:24:30 AM »

For the reasons that NewCanadaland has given, could someone object to the amendment?
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Blair
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« Reply #123 on: June 26, 2015, 08:13:38 AM »

I object, we need a failsafe option
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #124 on: June 26, 2015, 01:13:04 PM »

The amendment has been adopted because the objection was 2 minutes late.

I'll introduce an amendment to remove Yankee's amendment. Senators have 24 hours to object.
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